JAG Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 I was following a thread regarding this on another forum until its mods got frustrated an locked it. No solid answer was ever given as far as it being fiction and or useless. There was however a bit of info to say it was valid. Anyone have any info regarding the value of feeding empties? Or for that matter reasons why it it holds no value? Any smiths here care to comment? Thanks, JAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 IMHO it has no value or relevance as to how the gun will feed live ammo and the front edges of the empty cases will probably taer up the polished face of the feed ramp. If you want to know how a gun is going to feed, use real ammo. You can "slow cycle" it by hand to see where the hang up points are (muzzle downrange of course). There are metal snap caps around that are supposed to be as good as real ammo for feed checking, I just use the ammo I'm going to be shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bountyhunter Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 Anyone have any info regarding the value of feeding empties? It occurs to me the definition of "empies" would change the answer. If you are a reloader and load up some rounds without powder and primers, they would be very useful for checking feed path snags. I thought by "empties" you meant brass case with no slug? Those would not be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG Posted March 22, 2004 Author Share Posted March 22, 2004 You are correct, I was refering to cases sized but not loaded. No doubt you could tear up a ramp doing this. I wonder though if thats the only reason not to? Does that outweigh the reasons to? Maybe a bit of info from the post I was referring to.. When talking about the feeding of empty cases you are at one extreme, oppiste of a ctg OAL that is too long. If your handgun will strip that empty from the mag with no troubles, feed it right into the chamber, how can you not take that in consideration as step in measuring reliability? I mean, it is showing that it can feed without regards to the type of bullet loaded, its extreme, if you will as it could get no worse.Let me try this; 1. If you have a gun that that will feed ball but not certain HPs you would say it needed tuning. 2. If you had one that would feed everything but SWC, the same thing, it would need tuning. 3.So if you have a firearm that fed everything from ball to empty cases, wouldnt you conclude that it was more reliable then the ones mentioned in 1-2? Using it as the "only" means to measure is, well just plain dumb. But as an additional tool, seems to make sense. These are the questions that were asked, but never answered. BE, you have any comments on this? Can anyone answer these questions:1. What part of it would not equate to the ability to feed a loaded ctg? 2. If a gun will strip an empty from its magazine and then continue to travel into the guns chamber, does that not show the ability to function in less then desirable circumstances? 3. When feeding an empty out of a mag succesfully, does this not show that the lips on the mag have the correct form thus not completely depending on the nose of the bullet to guide the ctg into the chamber? JAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 If your pistol feeds what you like to shoot 100% of the time, your question doesn't matter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 I use emties (bullets, casing, and no primer or powder) to test for basic function when I install new parts. Saves time driving to the range to find out it doesn't work at all. The empties are also great for loading into magazines to practice reloads. I put red magic marker all over the heads to differentiate between real loads. Saves lots of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 A gun that feeds empty cases out of the mag will feed everything. My Smith 4506 will feed empty cases mixed with live rounds. My STI will not feed empty cases at all, but it still runs 100%. Make of that what you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 Yea, we used to brag on our guns in the old days about feeding empty brass. Then one day someone pointed out that the only thing it proved was if your gun could feed empty brass or not. And nothing else. And since empty brass won't go "bang" what's the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 22, 2004 Share Posted March 22, 2004 I guess it makes gunwritters feel good about their new custom-smithed centerfold 1911 to be able to brag on how it feeds empty cases or something. Glossary: Gunwritter (n)-- combination of 'gunwriter' and 'critter'. Not used to refer to present company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 I guess I'm like most. I just make up dummy roiunds and mark them accordingly to check operation of the gun. You practice the way you play, with real weights and dimentions. But I'm still trying to get a handle on the comments about how a "brass" casing can "tear up" a polished "steel" ramp on a gun barrel. dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 I had an instructor randomly place an empty case in a magazine when teaching malfunction drills. He was impressed that a tap-rack-target sufficed in my Kimber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Freeman Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 I fail to see the reason behind trying to find out an explanation of why a pistol would NEED to feed empties. Like Eric, my STI's, Caspain’s and Colts do not feed empties, but run 100% with live ammo. My Glocks do not even feed empties. More important than that, they don’t NEED to. The empty case test does nothing to determine anything about how your gun will feed real ammo. Nothing. A loaded round may be 1.250 long. An empty case might only be 19-23mm long. That might not seem like a lot, but in gunsmithing terms, it is huge. If you want to see if your gun will run the ammo you have loaded, load up some dummies. Several gunsmiths responded to you at the 1911 forum. The answer was, and still is, that feeding empties means nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAG Posted March 25, 2004 Author Share Posted March 25, 2004 So, what about all of the gunsmiths out there that do use this? Three smiths replied to that thread but never explained the reasons only what "they thought". Nobody offered a reason "why" this is not a valid test. Jeff Quinn of gunblast is quoted several times as saying its one of his tests. I am sure there are many other references out there as well. Seems strange that ther are facts posted to back it up but none to disclaim it. Yet people still say it means nothing with only "just because" as a reason. Personally I dont really care, but now I am curious. Gone shooting, JAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 25, 2004 Share Posted March 25, 2004 Well, feeding empties isn't a bad thing for a 1911 to be able to do.. but not feeding empties isn't the end of the world either. The world is full of 'tests' that may or may not be very valid, but still get used because they don't hurt anything and might occasionally tell you something useful. There are also 'tests' that we do because they look cool or make customers happy. Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Benzick Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Because 'smiths are initially held responsible for every malfunction their customers encounter, no matter how crappy the ammo is that is being fed into the new custom blaster, some 'smiths will try to make sure the gun will feed everything short of the clients earplugs. The empty case test is just one of several proofs a guy can put a pistol through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpcdivr Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Jag: We told you on that "other forum" that feeding empties is irrelevant, as that is not what the weapon needs to be able to feed in the first place. What is it you fail to understand here? Might as well function-check the gun with an empty .410 shotgun shell and a .45LC while your at it... Look, an over-ambitious home-smith could easily over-throat a barrel in an attempt to make his/her gun feed empties, to the point where a serious lack of case support exists; essentially ruining the barrel in the process. Better to make a gun feed the ammo you actually expect it to shoot. IMO, showing the ability to feed cases is simply an unnecessary exhibition to impress the ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Administrator note: I just had to remove a post in this thread due to name calling. That kind of thing doesn't fly on this forum. Frankly, I am suprised I even have to mention that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Forsyth Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Sorry. Frustration got the better of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 I have 2 stis, 2 svis and a para. I don't know if the sti or svi pistols will feed emptys or not but the para will shuck them all day long. If I ever go to a match that requires us to shoot emptys I will take the para, til then I think I will shoot the sti that is only proven with full ones. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 26, 2004 Share Posted March 26, 2004 Time for everyone to go rent "Much Ado About Nothing" and let Shakespeare put life in perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmccrock Posted March 27, 2004 Share Posted March 27, 2004 Anyway... feeding empties is irrelevant, as that is not what the weapon needs to be able to feed in the first place Not so much a 45 or 40 or super thing, but people used to pay good money to shoot 38 special wadcutters from a 1911. That is like feeding an empty, kindof. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBF Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 I don't know if any of my guns will feed empties. Never tried it. Travis F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 The problem with using the "empties" test is that it doesn't take into consideration the oal and shape of bullet, which will cause more problems than one can imagine. If the gun feeds empties, that just means it feeds empties - nothing more or less. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 28, 2004 Share Posted March 28, 2004 Sounds like the question has been asked and answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts