Why haven't four cylinder diesel engine'ed cars caught on in t

[Chills1994]

hi all,

supposedly, four banger diesels (with a turbo???) are all the rage in Europe?

I have heard of diesel fuel mileage figures in the 45MPG range.

I am just wondering why they haven't caught on here?

thanks!

Edited March 6, 2011 by Chills1994

[slemmo]

Because your gas prices are still insanely low, I guess the tolerance level havent been reached yet.

[gm iprod]

I agree.

But in Europe like the US Diesel is the same or slightly more expensive.

The big problem with small deisels is that they don't like heavy loads. Over a long distance they are just great, but do loose a little power when loaded up and really don't like hills. They are getting better all the time. I drove a 2.8L Toyota Surf for a few years and it hated hills and corners, we have plenty of both.

The economy is just awesome. The big (4.2L plus) deisels are more economical that the similar sized gas powered engines, and they don't loose so much power when loaded.

I believe many in the US think that Deisel is for commercial vehicles, not for the general runner. I know of plenty of people in the US that use Deisel for their Pickups, most are towing large RV trailers etc, so they have a good reason to go that way. Europe has not got the openess and extreme long distances likely to be driven when on holiday, so the need for small economical vehicles is much more apparant. The main difference between the cost of fuel in the US and Europe is TAX. The consumers in the US pay the same per litre of fuel. The Europeans just pay much more tax per litre.

A freind has just driven right across North Africa (Egypt to Morroco, leaving a swathe of destruction just behind him it appears) and fuel is much cheaper there and they mostly use Deisel, because it is even cheaper than gasoline, and the extended range is useful when you can die easily if you get lost.

From http://www.temehu.com/Prices.htm

Fuel is very cheap in Libya, which compensates for all the above costs: one of the cheapest in the world. Some tourists find it "bizarre" that alcohol-free beer costs 5 Libyan dinars, when 10 litres of petrol cost 2 Libyan dinars. As in any other country, imported goods are generally more expensive than goods produced locally.

Petrol : 20p a litre (0.20 LYD). $0.32USD

Diesel : 15p a litre (0.15 LYD). $0.24USD

[SDM]

hi all,

supposedly, four banger diesels (with a turbo???) are all the rage in Europe?

I have heard of diesel fuel mileage figures in the 45MPG range.

I am just wondering why they haven't caught on here?

thanks!

I've often wondered the same about small trucks. I'd love to have Ford Ranger with a 4 (or even 3) cyl diesel. A friend of mine has a Jetta TDI and it gets between 45 and 50, depending on how you drive it.

[twodownzero]

My 7100 lb ram gets 18-20 mpg. I'm sure a 4 cylinder diesel could do 25+ in a smallish pickup.

[Joe4d]

Its our screwed up emission laws that dont take into effect that a dirtier car getting better gas mileage will burn over all less fuel and polute less than one getting a third the gas mileage but isnt as clean. The rest of the world can get a Ford Ranger with a turbo diesel and has been able to for years. The ones I drove in Honduras drove well.

[smokshwn]

I can understand the desire for the high mileage numbers that the diesel option offers but there are a couple of factors everyone seems to forget.

1) The cost differential in the fuel.

2) The cost differential in the drivetrain.

To use the Jetta as an example, the epa mileage is listed as 24/34 for the gas version and 30/42 for the diesel. We'll say that is a 27% advantage for the diesel. Fuel prices in my AO were $3.29 for gas and $3.89 for diesel, 18% advantage to gas. Assuming that you average 30 mpg in the gas version and 38mpg for the diesel, fuel costs for 15,000 miles would be $1650 for gas and $1535 for diesel.

Doing my best off the VW website to equip both cars equally, the gas Jetta is priced $3,500 lower than the diesel so that equates to driving 437,500 miles to regain the initial expenditure for the diesel drivetrain.

Assuming that you drive 15,000 miles a year and kept the car ten years you would save around $2,500 by going with the gas version.

So tell me again why I should be so attracted to the diesel again?

Edited March 6, 2011 by smokshwn

[Joe4d]

The difference in cost has got to be related to supply and demand, The VW is basically the only one available, If everybody had one cost would go down. I think the diesel fuel costs are inflated also. Is it taxed heavier than gasoline ? From a manufacturering point I really dont see why a diesel engine should cost more to produce in fact it should cost less as there are less parts and controls.

But until there are some changes like maybe giving a break on emmissions to cars that get over 50mpg, it doesnt quite add up yet. I did the math on mileage and maintenance and bought 5.4 high output gas engine truck. I loose about 4 mpg to the diesel but make it up on cheaper oil changes, cheaper parts, and initial cost.

[furyalecto]

Are oil changes as expensive on the little diesels as the big ones?

[smokshwn]

The difference in cost has got to be related to supply and demand, The VW is basically the only one available, If everybody had one cost would go down.

I can't see how you arrived at that conclusion when every example of gas vs. diesel (BMW, Mercedes, Dodge, Ford, Chevy, GMC, Volkswagen, Audi, etc.) show the same relative price increases for the diesels they offer.

From a manufacturering point I really dont see why a diesel engine should cost more to produce in fact it should cost less as there are less parts and controls.

Other than spark plugs and the accompanying ignition system what parts are missing? Very sophisticated controls, turbos, diesel injection pumps, urea injection, the increased parts durability to deal with 20+:1 compression can easily account for significant cost increase.

Also to help show my point that many people give far too much credit to mpg figures this is a good read...

MPG vs. GPM

Edited March 6, 2011 by smokshwn

[Matt Cheely]

Emissions limits.

The restrictions these days add thousands of dollars to the cost of a vehicle for aftertreatment devices to control particulate output.

On heavy duty diesel trucks, we're only just getting back the the fuel economy we had in 1998 because of the emissions regs. But now the truck costs 20,000 more for just the engine and aftertreatment side. Thank the EPA.

[CocoBolo]

What you mean I got 3 diesels, 2 Kubota's and a Shubara, lawn mowers and tractors. Ok, I think that sometimes we can get a little panic like with primers. A couple weeks ago I talked the wife out of her 20 mpg 4 door truck and into a 40 mpg gas powdered car Hyundia Elantra. My personal car is a Toyota Camary 34 mpg. My old truck gets 18.5 mpg and it gets driven about 2500 miles a year, the car 500 miles a week.

I like to boil it down to the cost per mile and that is a lot more complicated than just fuel. A Lexus will never have a low cost per mile because of its depreciation and insurance cost.

So why didn't I talk her into a Hybrid like the Preius at 51 mpg, because that car cost more to drive at todays car prices and gas prices. At todays prices you have to drive the Preius 200,000 miles before you saved your first penny on gas and by then you would be $5000 in the hole on replacing the batteries.

What about the Volt $42,000 car versus a $16,000 40 mpg gas powered car, how far can you go on $26,000 worth of gas even if electricty was free?

I have to save money on gas so I can pump lead into the ground!

Edited March 6, 2011 by CocoBolo

[Chills1994]

one of the other reasons I am leaning towards diesel is because the low prices/costs of making my own biodiesel. I specifically didn't bring that up in my OP because I didn't want to derail this main thread.

I met a guy at a party a few years ago who was driving a Dodge Cummins Turbo Diesel. he is a maintennance contractor for the schools around here. he said it only cost him 62 cents a gallon to make his own biodiesel. he picked up the used cooking oil from the schools's cafeterias.

he said in the winter time he would run it 50/50 with dino diesel.

there was a Ford Ranger pickup truck with a diesel engine sold to the US market in the 80's.

I think Oldsmobile or maybe even Buick made one too.

a'yup, it appears that currently the Jetta TDi is the only viable option on the market today.

I wouldn't buy brand spanking new off the dealer lot. I'd rather let the first owner eat the vast majority of depreciation and hopefully snatch up a year old or two year old one up cheaper.

There is a Dodge dealer just down the street. I am balking at the $46,000 to $53,000 sticker prices on the four door Dodge 2500 (Cummins diesel) pickup trucks. A truck payment higher than my house payment....jeeeshhh???

I guess for now I am stuck with my 14 year old two door/two seater F-150, which gets about 13 MPG. My first car was a 1988 Saab 900 (two point something 4 cylinder with a turbo and 5 speed stick) that would get 33 MPG on the highway.

[lynn jones]

hi all,

supposedly, four banger diesels (with a turbo???) are all the rage in Europe?

I have heard of diesel fuel mileage figures in the 45MPG range.

I am just wondering why they haven't caught on here?

thanks!

EPA

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: We don't see diesel small trucks here because the government taxes the crap out of them to bring them in. People would not pay for that. VW and Mercedes are grandfathered on there cars but are not allowed to bring there diesel trucks in unless they pay the tarrif. It is in place to help protect the big 3. I have a 2010 VW Jetta and on long trips it will get 55 mpg on the highway. It has a small turbo and works well in this high altitude in Albuquerque. I also have a 2006 Dodge Mega cab(rolling sofa) with a Cummins. On the last long trip it was getting 24 mpg on the highway and 17 in the city. They make some great little diesels in Europe. The Smart car over there has a Mercedes 3 cylinder diesel and gets over 65mpg. Diesel fuel is also overpriced here as well since it costs less to refine it? If you want to run biodiesel I would make sure you can find the oil first. There are alot of guys selling it now instead of you can have it if you take it away. Old Mercedes cars make great biodiesel vehicles. I am thinking of getting a old Toyota pickup 1985 or older and getting a diesel Toyota engine for it. Another dream vehicle would be a Mercedes G-wagon with a diesel or a Range Rover with a diesel. Maybe a VW Tourag with a bigger turbo diesel Lots of great diesels out there if you look. Thanks, Eric

[Vlad]

Part of it is that gas engines have gotten FAR more efficient as well. You mention your F-150 with 13mpg. Lets assume that's the v8 of the era at 220hp Current F150 with with a entry V6 puts about 300hp with 17/23mpg. That means about 100% "better" when you look at mpg/hp ratio.

The bigger issue has been the type of diesel available. US diesel has a crappier ignition performance, does a bit worse in MPG and a lot worse in cold weather, when compared with Euro diesel.

[lowlands]

Car culture (aimed at horsepower not efficiency) outside of emissions is another reason they didn't catch on in the US I'd say. Here in the Netherlands diesel powered sedans are VERY normal for people who drive a lot (road tax is higher for diesel cars, fuel is cheaper than petrol).

The Jetta I see on the US Volkswagen site only comes with the 2.0l TDI engine, in Europe they also sell it with a 1.6l TDI engine. The 1.6l TDI does 48mpg city and 58mpg highway for a average of 54mpg compared to the 44mpg average for the 2.0l version.

It surprised me to see European manufacturers in general only sell their biggest engine models on the US market, even in Germany where there is no speed limit on big parts of the highways a lot of people go for smaller engines, for example the 1.6l TDI Jetta still does 118mph

[TMC]

one of the other reasons I am leaning towards diesel is because the low prices/costs of making my own biodiesel. I specifically didn't bring that up in my OP because I didn't want to derail this main thread.

I met a guy at a party a few years ago who was driving a Dodge Cummins Turbo Diesel. he is a maintennance contractor for the schools around here. he said it only cost him 62 cents a gallon to make his own biodiesel. he picked up the used cooking oil from the schools's cafeterias.

I have a Jetta TDI and I looked into bio a coule years ago. I don't know where you live but in California home made bio-diesel is hard to do. In CA its hard to get restaurants to let you have waste oil. The state regulates the collections business and restaurants are required to only give waste oil to State Licensed collectors.

How do you become a licenses collector? You need to pay the $1,000 fee, have a large printed sign on your collection vehicle, have a state approved vehicle and storage facility and be subject to inspections.

One you've made your own fuel you are suppoed to pay, IIRC, 18+/- cents per gallon to the state because by making your own fuel you are not contributing to the stage highway fund through fuel taxes for the roads you drive on.

Bio is better for the engine, the emissions are lower and in many cases MPG improves. You would think with aall the enviromentalists in CA the state would encourage people to recycle used oils.

[Got Juice?]

here is what I think would make a nice Daily Driver...

[Jman]

I believe it's a given. The "Volt" and the "Leaf" are simply non-starters IMO.

Clean diesel (ultra-low sulfur) fuel is the solution. One only need to see what

Germany has done with the VW turbo diesel. No brainer.

Diesel costs ~30% less to refine than gasoline and can be brought to market much sooner.

At least 30% greater torque and fuel economy. Most importantly is that its infrastructure most

closely resembles what exists here in the US today. Our refineries already produce diesel. The wholesale

and retail outlets across the country already handle, ship and sell the product. These entities

can ramp it up substantially over a period of time and stay in business while doing it. As mentioned

until the US hits the magic number, some say its around $5.00 per gal of gas, I believe we wont see

real moves towards legitimate alternatives.

Jim

[nwb01]

The difference in cost has got to be related to supply and demand, The VW is basically the only one available, If everybody had one cost would go down. I think the diesel fuel costs are inflated also. Is it taxed heavier than gasoline ? From a manufacturering point I really dont see why a diesel engine should cost more to produce in fact it should cost less as there are less parts and controls.

But until there are some changes like maybe giving a break on emmissions to cars that get over 50mpg, it doesnt quite add up yet. I did the math on mileage and maintenance and bought 5.4 high output gas engine truck. I loose about 4 mpg to the diesel but make it up on cheaper oil changes, cheaper parts, and initial cost.

Due to after treatment(with some catalysts having containing enough precious metals to purchase most small countries),EGR, OBD, and High Pressure Fuel Systems, the price of the "simple" engine is now way beyond what gasoline engines cost. Technology is expensive and not always the answer.

Emissions limits.

The restrictions these days add thousands of dollars to the cost of a vehicle for aftertreatment devices to control particulate output.

On heavy duty diesel trucks, we're only just getting back the the fuel economy we had in 1998 because of the emissions regs. But now the truck costs 20,000 more for just the engine and aftertreatment side. Thank the EPA.

Sad but true... But one most remember how we (industry and EPA) got to this point. Some manufactures (I wont mention any names) brought the tightened emissions regs on themselves by doing things against the spirit of the regulations..i.e. CHEATING.

[twodownzero]

Its our screwed up emission laws that dont take into effect that a dirtier car getting better gas mileage will burn over all less fuel and polute less than one getting a third the gas mileage but isnt as clean. The rest of the world can get a Ford Ranger with a turbo diesel and has been able to for years. The ones I drove in Honduras drove well.

A diesel is not "dirtier" by most measures. It might put more particulates into the air, but that does not equal "dirtier."

The difference in cost has got to be related to supply and demand, The VW is basically the only one available, If everybody had one cost would go down. I think the diesel fuel costs are inflated also. Is it taxed heavier than gasoline ? From a manufacturering point I really dont see why a diesel engine should cost more to produce in fact it should cost less as there are less parts and controls.

But until there are some changes like maybe giving a break on emmissions to cars that get over 50mpg, it doesnt quite add up yet. I did the math on mileage and maintenance and bought 5.4 high output gas engine truck. I loose about 4 mpg to the diesel but make it up on cheaper oil changes, cheaper parts, and initial cost.

No, diesel is not taxed higher than gasoline.

A diesel engine has to be far more durable due to the stresses of compression ignition.

There's no way in hell that your 5.4L gas truck gets within 4 MPG of a diesel truck. Additionally, the two do not have similar capabilities because no gas truck has the performance of a modern diesel pickup with what is usually a medium duty engine. The initial cost of diesel is unquestionably higher, but if you don't factor in the massively increased performance, it's easy to conclude that it'll never pay for itself.

Also, a diesel truck is a huge investment. If you don't plan on keeping it for 10+ years, you're likely to give that return on investment to someone else. I don't intend to ever sell mine.

Car culture (aimed at horsepower not efficiency)

This is a misnomer as well. With emissions standards where they are, richening the mixture/overfueling to get more horsepower without increasing volumetric efficiency is not acceptable.

The fact that smaller engines have more horsepower than ever, head designs, etc., are amazing compared to yesterday, not to mention roller cams, OHC, etc. becoming the norm rather than the exception, I don't think you're warranted in assuming that the focus on performance hasn't come alongside an increase in efficiency.

The facts just simply do not support that conclusion, as I see it.

Edited March 6, 2011 by twodownzero

[Got Juice?]

My old DD Hotshot/Tow rig diesel was the first Twin Turbo Duramax trucks out there.

Hard to argue with 20MPG (hand calculated empty @ 70mph) Towed overweight in hotshot more times than I care to count, Ran consistant 12.2's@109.44mph. All this in an extended cab long box 4x4!!

And if anyone doubts the power of the Diesel here are some specs:

Weight 7680lbs with driver

0-60 in 3.2 seconds

1/4 mile 12.2@109.44

Top Speed 147 mph.

Dyno'd HP at the rear wheels :559RWHP/ 1550ft-lbs of torque.

Truck went 330K Miles Before I bought my new truck.

Earth-Moving, Transmission Warping power. All contained in a rather 'pedestrian looking old man's truck'

Edited March 7, 2011 by Got Juice?

[gm iprod]

The Dodge Ram Van as it stands now is a Merc Sprinter. They have a 2.5L Diesel. MOEX run about 10 of them for shuttles between Columbia and Kansas City / St Louis. The sit on 70mph loaded no problems. But not too many hills. They do staggering miles. That is where the advantage comes in.

If the trucks / cars were assembled in the US the tax on tehm would disappear. Daimler Chrysler missed the boat before they fell apart.

The Ford Ranger is available in Australia and NZ (and I am sure elsewhere) with a 3.0L 4 pot deisel,

Wildtrack Ranger.bmp

[bbbean]

Mystery to me. I love my diesel Jeep Liberty and get 30 mpg on the highway, 25 on the farm. Compare that to the 24 highway, 19 on the farm I get out of my gas liberty. The 15,000 they made in 2006 sold like hotcakes, and everyone I know who's had one sings its praises. Unfortunately, they couldn't stand success, and quit selling them in this country.

Jeep introduced the 4 door Wrangler in a diesel this year, but chose not to release it in the US. It supposedly gets 35-36 mpg, has torque to spare, and like the Liberty, performs on the street like a gas Jeep. I was thinking of trading in my Liberty for a Wrangler, but guess I'll drive it another 100K or so.

edited to add: FWIW, my Jeep does great with loads and hills. It pulls like a full sized truck and accelerates uphill better than my V8 with a similar load. The boost in mileage more than makes up for the current price differential between gas and diesel, and it also has reduced maintenance and increased longevity compared to a gas burner. It's also worth noting that diesel has not always sold at a premium relative to gasoline. When I bought the jeep, diesel was cheaper than gasoline, and has traded below or at the same price as gas several times in the past 5 years.

Edited March 8, 2011 by bbbean