JD45 Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I am completely disgusted with this crap, all of my shots are too low. Today, I went out and shot 40rds., and did everything cold, just like the pros say(to see what needs the most work). I placed 2 IDPA targets at 10yds., one yard apart. I drew and fired two in each. Then I would paste, step off the line and wait a couple minutes(didn't try to recreate the five hour wait in a match). I discovered that all of that speed and nice sight alignment that I see when dry firing is 100% useless when I put ammo in the gun. I have to slow the end of the draw to hit anything. The worst part is that my shots are 6-12 inches low, strung vertically, well centered. If I shoot .50 splits they are dead on( it is sighted in perfect, slow fire). I see my sights(don't blink much), and do not look for bullet holes. I have shot the same 1911 .45 and 200gr.SWC@845fps for three years. I never shoot over 5000 rds. per year,but I was a decent slow fire shooter years before I started IDPA. I'm almost ready to give up dry firing, if things don't improve. I have read Enos' book twice and everything else that I could lay my hands on. I need advice on how to stop these low shots; this is where I'm losing all points in matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I'm having a very similar problem with a 9mm 1911. Hopefully you'll get some excellent responses that will help me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Sounds like you are concentrating on getting the shot off too quickly, at the expense of slapping the trigger, maintaining your grip, keeping the sights aligned and follow through... sorry to be harsh, but when you search for speed at the expense of the fundamentals, that is what usually happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Where on the target are you putting the sights? Top of the -0 circle, square in the middle, bottom of the circle, at the head/body joint, in the middle of the entire target? Where are your hits in relation to this? Are they 1 0, 1 -1? How low are you hitting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted March 20, 2004 Author Share Posted March 20, 2004 An inch above center of the 0 zone. Most shots are 6-12" low, maybe one 0 then all -1s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Been down this road one to many times already. Try pulling the trigger using only your trigger finger. Now that I've goten away from the FistF**** method, it seems that Leatham cat might actually know what he's talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 If you really need to have this proved to yourself get a friend to pull the trigger while you aim. You will probably start making nice ragged holes in the -0 area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted March 20, 2004 Author Share Posted March 20, 2004 I can make one ragged hole shooting at 10yds. with my own finger pulling the trigger, but if I decrease the splits they go lower( of course group size gets larger the faster I go). Still, the horizontal spred is usually less than the width of the 0 zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dajarrel Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 JD45, I don't know why, but from what I read, you are just pulling the trigger before the gun gets to target. I have had that problem when I try to speed up my draw because I know the first shot at ten yards is a point shoot. I have my target indexed (as you do with the hits being centered) but pull the trigger before the gun is up. On your draw, do you swing the gun up from the holster to target presentation as a pendulum swings or do you bring the gun to the support hand in the middle of the chest and push toward the target? If you get off an early shot with the first method, your shots will be low, however an early shot with the second method will sometimes surprise you with a hit dead center. I hope this helps some, good luck dj One other thought. Are you anticipating the recoil? There is another thread on this forum discussing this. If you anticipate the recoil in an effort to get back on target sooner, you may be tipping the gun forward resulting in low shots. FWIW dj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrd Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I had this problem when I had an 18 lb. recoil spring in the gun, changed to a buffer and lighter springs 12.5-14 and hits got much better. I found that when seeing my front sight it would drop below POA, then up, then down again, just due to slide slamming home with heavy spring and subconscious muscle tension fighting it. How is your Bill Drill? Rhino; Same thing just lighter springs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Rhino; Same thing just lighter springs? I'm not sure ... BigDave thinks it may be a timing thing, where I'm fighting the gun like I'm shooting my .45ACP. My situation is a little different JD45 in that with this 9mm, it happens with slow fire more than rapid fire. Sometimes it seems fine, but other times they just go low. The 9mm already has a pretty light recoil spring, but I think it has a standard weight mainspring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Like EricW said. Leatham is the trigger control Sensei. His slapping is not "bad" slapping. It enables his accuracy, it doesn't hinder it. PS - Watch ToddJ shoot the 3-string table stage from 2003 Open - the one where he blew the first draw & still stomped EVERYONE. Look at his index finger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpeters8445 Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 JD45, Are you sure that your not just simply looking over your sights, instead of through them, when you speed things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 JD, Everyone's giving you some good advice already. Do work on isoloating the trigger finger movement. Do watch over muscling the gun during recoil --- are you pulling it down to low? Do aim at a spot near the top of the circle, or maybe an inch below the 12 O'clock position. Make sure that the gun tracks back to this spot for the second shot. Finally, relax a little --- it might help too. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted March 21, 2004 Author Share Posted March 21, 2004 I thank everyone for the tips, I'll keep working on it. I shot in a match this morning and I got 95% of the points for each stage (at least), but I had to shoot at half-throttle. Someone asked about springs: I used a 20lb. recoil spring until last year. Now I use 15lb. Wolff and a Wilson buff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted March 21, 2004 Author Share Posted March 21, 2004 Oh yeah, Mr.8445 above may have struck gold for me. That "looking over" thing is very possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 23, 2004 Share Posted March 23, 2004 Lots of things come to mind...and many have been covered (in this thread and many others). What I see a lot of is shooters are looking for the hits. They get to the point that they start looking before the bullet has left the barrel. Forget the goal of hitting the target (really). Make the goal to see the front sight lift out of the notch. You won't move forward until youi do. The fact that it only happens to you in rapid fire might also mean that you are tensing up. Loosen up the hand that has the trigger finger on it. And, again...make the goal to see the front sight lift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoGun Posted April 4, 2004 Share Posted April 4, 2004 JD, I sometimes have the same issue. I discovered that when I fully extended my arms the muzzle of my pistol drops a bit. When I shoot fast I tend to make that full extension of my right hand and the muzzle would go down but when I allowed a slight flex I don't do that. While I could put in an arched mainspring houseing on my open gun I currently can't alter my limited gun as I also shoot that one in our clubs production class. I've altered my stance just a tad and now I fully extend my weak hand and keep my strong arm bent just a bit. This has helped tremendously. You might give it a try. Good shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanHuben Posted April 7, 2004 Share Posted April 7, 2004 As stoopid as it may sound, your body may be returning to its true hold when you speed things up. If you are using a flat mainspring housiong, try using a rounded one. If your body is throwing up the gun without giving the hand eyething to adjust from its Natual point, then you may shoot low. Try shooting a Glock as they point really high for me- aka I don't shoot them. If your shots at speed are better, than you know to adjust the equipment as well as better fire control. Just a thought- but like in Golf, you should never BLAME your technique- but always the equipment- builds confidence and allows for new purchases! Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wadrew Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 I don't like the arched or wedged mainspring housings. They move the rest of my hands too far from the grip and of the reciever. Next Idea - have your buddy put some dummy rounds in one of your mags during a practice bill drill. If you're doing what my next paragraph talks about, it'll surprise you. I think you may find that you are driving the muzzle down with excessive grip tension and/or trying to counteract the recoil impulse. Also, the muzzle may be too heavy, causing the muzzle to dip or the rear of the gun to rise above the line of sight just for a moment, when you are breaking the shot. Try different recoil springs. I like the 9lp ISMI in my 45ss, 40 lim, and 38super racer. with a 0.90 shokbuff. I would suggest staying AWAY from the tungsten magwells, guide rods, and barrels. They always ADD too much weight in the WRONG place and at the wrong TIME. Recoil is your friend. It's what the gun does. You line up the sights and pull the trigger. Recoil helps the gun move from target to target. If you don't fight it you may find that it helps you. Don't try soooooo hard. Just shoot and have fun! -Drew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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