2011 Ozark 3-Gun Championship

[Gaoler]

In spite of the scoring problems I think the match was still worthwhile...

It's one match. There will be others and I intend to make as many as I can.

Of course I'll never be a threat to any of our so called "top shooters" so maybe I can afford to not get so upset about about what happened...

Squad 12... Great bunch of guys. 'Hope to shoot with you all again some time.

Now... If we ever get home ( truck blew an axel and is sitting at the dealer waiting for parts that aren't due to arrive until Wednesday) we'll see y'all at FNH in Nov.

Team Hoser... Presently bugg'd in at a Marriot of I55

Out

[Kevin Holman]

I just wanted to say I had a GREAT time.

I have never had more fun at a 3gun match before. Mostly because I rode up with a great crew (including my wife) and we had a great squad (18). I don't ever remember laughing so much in 3 days.

The stages were fantastic. Other than a few poppers breaking or backers moving... I didn't see anything wrong with any of it. It was a course and we all had to run it. I thought it was a GREAT mix of challenging shotgun, reloading, pistol, and rifle. The slug targets were EASY (you all practice those, right?)... even the long ones.

The RO's were great for the most part... we only had one stage where they seemed to be missing some penalties... and I did see a few times the hit calls were confusing... but overall it was fine.

The scoring mixup sucked - as I want to always see the top shooters recognized for their achievements and sacrifices. Plus I just like to see them walk in front of me, and put a face with a name, since I am a newbie.

I was so excited and thrilled to see a 3GUN Nation shootoff in person. I have been watching them on TV and watching my heroes of the sport for two seasons... and to have the priviledge to see this in person was the icing on my cake. I was giddy the whole time and you could not possibly wipe the smile from my face. Front row tickets to the greatest show on earth.

I had a GREAT match...... I shot the best I have ever done, I got to ride up with an awesome crew, shoot with a great squad, shoot a fantastic and challenging match, I had the honor of getting to squad with Patrick Kelly (great to meet you sir), got to watch the making of my favorite TV show in person (and meet the crew), and got to hang out with the top shooters in the world of the sport which is the passion of my life right now.

It doesn't get any better than that, fellas.

Thank you to Kirk, Larry, all the RO's (who serve in a way I will never understand), the sponsors who make this possible, to 3GUN Nation for producing my favorite show, and to all the fellow shooters who share a passion for the competition known as multi-gun.

[toothandnail]

Not to bring up the coaching issue again , but I just watched some rock castle videos 3 of the 7 I watched the RO "coached " the shooter , 1 was told he missed a plate , 1 was told he missed a paper on the right , 1 was told he was running short on time.

On our stage , many shooters would ask "Did I miss any"? That was answered. As well as if they "asked which one"? basically only answering ??'s from the shooter

Shooter was told when they hit low on the popper's(which was NOT a Hit) as the hit could be seen and heard , which was gone over in the stage read, usually after the 2nd or 3rd low hit

Other than that I don't believe there was any other com's to the shooter other than, HIT!

Edited September 13, 2011 by toothandnail

[Kevin Holman]

PS. I'd REALLY like to see the stage scores posted, and overall finals.

One of the best things about this sport, is that it is still small enough where the avg joe like me can see where he stacks up against the best. I want to see the scores posted, regardless of what happened with a prize table.

[Big Bear]

Great match! excellent stages , ALOT of hard work by Kirk , Larry , & Robert

Kirk our sympathies and prayers for you and your family for the loss of your sister .

Then the computer crash with the scores!!?? A lessor man would have quit and walked away , I am honored to know and work with you!!!

No, my friend, the honor is mine. I have a great appreciation for you and all the ROs who worked so hard making this match happen. And I'm humbled by your words.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Mike Cyrwus from Accurate Iron

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0T9nqTX4P0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I'm gonna assume this was a top 15 performance and it may have been a top 10 match for Mike.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

I guessed on the 7th place finish based on the preliminary scores we saw. If I failed to give you the credit for besting me I apologize.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brV7MwUJW0E&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I also forgot to thank everyone who came out and help celebrate my lovely wife Tara's birthday. It was great meeting a bunch if new friends.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser

[Kevin Holman]

Glock malfs, Jesse?

[Brian Payne]

These are a few of my thoughts from the match.

3GunNation Shootoff:

One of the things I really appreciated about the DPMS Tri-Gun Challenge was the fact that Randy Luth always made sure to put some of the best shooters in the country on each squad. He felt that this served to help the newer shooters learn the sport. Randy realized that the new shooters were the future of our sport.

With that thought in mind I would like to see the format for the shootoff changed just a little. Take the eight best shooters and keep that part of the format the same. To allow the average joe shooter to get a taste of what the shootoff would be like, "Random Draw" eight more shooters from the rest of the group of shooters and have them compete in a shootoff that has only half of the normal shootoff targets set up. We would use only half of the targets just to make the "Preliminary Shootoff" go faster. The winner of the shootoff would get a prize certificate of $250.00 - $500.00 to be used for more practice ammo, or better equipment. Just a thought.

Random Draw for prizes:

I don't think there is a place in our sport for random draw except if there has been a match that was stopped due to an act of God. In this case, if there was enough information available to decide who would compete in the shootoff, there was enough information to at least give the top 10% in each division the chance to walk the prize table first, then the rest of the shooters could have gone random draw ( I would have voted for this option and I was not a top 10% shooter by any means). Another option would have been to have drawn a stage number at random, and have that stages placings be the final placings. Random Draw in this situation was the worst option to have been taken in my opinion.

The best option of all would to have had plans B and C on hand in case Plan A quit working. Easier said than done I am sure.

Stages:

Awesome. I liked the pistol steel a lot. Once my confidence in my abilities increased I had a lot more fun. I really liked the small silhouette poppers used for handgun on Stage #1 and Stage #9.

My favorite stage was stage #4, and my least favorite was stage #1. The main reason for not liking stage #1 is the fact that I had run a good stage until I did my "Walrus belly flopping onto an iceberg" immitation while getting onto the boat. I knew I was in trouble when the "ripples" coming from the boat were more like whitecaps on a windy lake. The results were less than harmonious to say the least.

RO's and Military:

I can't say enough about this crew. All the military personel were up for a little game of "race you to the steel" during set up. The RO's looked overworked and overheated by the end of the match but I never noted a sour look or word from any of them.

Coaching:

Assisting a shooter avoid a "time out" is good for the shooter and good for the match and I feel coaching should be allowed in these circumstances. For the better shooters we should be playing by "Big Boy Rules" (or big girl rules). Over running targets is a risk taken when you are pushing the envelope. If, in your walk through and stage planning, you don't see a target or forget a target, you take the penalty and learn from that mistake. I am hoping we never see specific rules written to not allow coaching because it would harm the sport more than help it.

Squad #5:

I had the chance to shoot with some of the best shooters and best people I have ever met. I learned a lot, and feel I reciprocated by showing everyone ways of how not to run a stage. A good attitude was maintained by all. I had a blast.

Andrew, Matt, Phong, good shooting with you. If you get a chance could you PM me for some information.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Brian Payne

[wi shooter]

Has anyone heard if ther are any intentions of getting scores up, or is it just not gonna happen?

[Jesse Tischauser]

Glock malfs, Jesse?

I know, right? It happened twice. I cleaned it then it ran all day Sunday. I am no gunsmith but I think I put it together wrong befroe the match or I have a couple mags that need new springs.

[horseman]

This was my first major 3-gun. I had a lot of fun, learned tons, and was most impressed by the cheerful, helpful, RO's. They really stepped up and made the match for me. And thanks to the group from Texas who were faster and better than several on our squad but patient and helpful with us old guys.

[Mark Stephens]

Props to my man the 'Hawaiian Jedi' for making the shootoff and advancing to the finals! Finally starting to get back into form. Nice job. Congrats to Rusty B for edging out Kalani in what has to be one of the closest 3GN shootoffs ever! That Daniel guy, he's pretty good though. Great job Rustin on making the finals on your first shootoff, i'm sure it wont be your last!

[Uber]

Sooooo... Score update? I think everyone would at least like an ETA on posting

[Ozark Badger]

What did I like best? Creative stage design.  Incredibly thought out, interesting, challenging, exciting, thematic. Pirates Off th Bow, Clear the Terminal, and Abotobad Compound are truly unique stages I doubt many of us will ever forget.

I did have some concerns: No gun racks, canopies, or trash cans at stages. ROs seemed a bit worn out from too much sun, too much work, too little food/water, and too little shooting.  

Then I heard about Kirks sister. I have NOTHING to complain about.  I could only imagine how hard it is to throw a 3 day party for 200-300 people, much less plan a shoot for that many while grieving. I'm just happy the shoot wasn't cancelled. A few missed details are expected in this case.  I am praying that Kirk can have a time for healthy grief now. 

Logistics: may want HQ more centrally located. Near 3GN site perhaps?  That would also cut down on traffic by that house. 

Prize table: At least 8 of 12 on our squad did NOT stay for prize table. We finished before noon. Hitting the road early was more important even before the computer scoring malf became apparent. I would consider breaking prize table into two: competitive and non.  Keep the best prizes for the best shooters after scores finalized just like it usually is. Additionally, have the cellar dweller prizes that assaulter described available earlier for those of us who don't want to wait for a $20 prize bag.

[sbmd]

Hello everyone.....thanks for the kind words about the match. However I need to provide you guys with some information about the match and the staff.

1. Do to some difficulties that occurred outside of anyones control which prevented the stages from being completed by Wednesday, Kirk and I remained on the range until 7:30pm on Thursday night finishing the set up of stages. I am not sure what time Kirk left but it was after I did at at 7:45 to hold the RO meeting. We did this so the shooters could enjoy the stages without having to wait to complete the set up on Friday morning.

2. Most of the match staff did not get to finish shooting all the stages, every shooter that I know of shot all 10 stages. Most of you know that the match staff gets to shoot the stages with a free entry for working. They did not even get to enjoy the stages.

3. The scoring issue no matter what was tried we could not get the stage results to merge to a final overall. I took the suggestion that someone gave to use one stage, the problem was that we could not even have been 100% positive that one stage had all the results as I discovered when I went into stats to try that approach, I discovered the following: if someone found that they were missing on a stage, they went into stats, that score was entered, then another overall stage results posted....then it would be discovered that the program would drop someone else off. So this then in turn became a viscious cycle with no end in sight as could have done this, found a missing score entered it and then reprinted only to find another score missing thus adding more wait time for the shooters.

4. Lessons were learned and will be applied for future matches.

5. For those that have anger or animosity about the way things happened, please send me an email or PM me and I will be glad to accept your assistance with the FN match or Kirk would be glad to add you to the match list for next year. Many times people forget that all the match staff volunteers their time to host, set up, officiate or manage the match. So please before you turn on the blow torches, consider the time invested by those working the match as it is a considerable amount of time. Just for giggles, I have been tracking my time I have invested as the MD for the FNH USA match. To date I have over 440 hours into planning and working on the match. Now consider this, we are still 3 months away from our match. Shooters only see the match from the days they spend on the range. Most match staff is the an hour before shooters arrive and an hour after the last shooter is done their stage. I encourage anyone to get a true understanding as to what it is like...become a member of the match staff for a major match.

6. As for the prize table, I suggested to Kirk after looking at everything that random draw was the only way to go, luckily we decided earlier in the day to establish the seperate prize tables for divisions, so at least you walked it by your division and not as one big group.

I understood, we would not make everyone happy but unfortunately in the position of making decision you will not make everyone happy or they would not be tough decisions. So we tried to make the best of everything given the unfortunate situation presented.

Hopefully this helps with an understanding of what went on behind the scenes.

Larry

Ozark 3 Gun RM

[Big Bear]

I would like to thank you all for your compliments, criticism, suggestions, and understanding. As understanding as all of you have been I still feel as though this was a horrific mistake on my part and my part alone. I accept the responsibility that is mine and have only praise, thanks, and appreciation for all my staff. I would like to especially thank Larry for his advise, and counsel during an extremely difficult decision. His experience was a vital part of the success of the match and in the tough decisions that immediately followed. Additionally I would like to thank Darren and Natilie for their tireless, never say die effort to produce a final score. And to Rob, Kyle, and all the ROs, my hat's off, true pros, gentlemen in your own right. Rob and Kyle spent endless days helping with all the prep and worked well into the night on many occasions. Without all of you this would never be possible. Before I lost my phone last week I sent a text to my wife and thanked her for being understanding of my ambitions, I want to thank you all for helping me realize it. God bless you all.

The scores will be posted here, emailed to each competitor and added to the website as soon as possible.

My most humble apologies,

[Chills1994]

Brian Payne wrote:

......

Random Draw for prizes:

I don't think there is a place in our sport for random draw except if there has been a match that was stopped due to an act of God.......

How do some major IDPA matches sell completely out, but still have a random draw/raffle?

The only answer I have come up with for that is they put on a good, well run, and fair match, year after year.

Switching gears here....didn't you guys who shot this match get carbon copy scoresheets?

Does it really take scoring software?

[Jesse Tischauser]

Hello everyone.....thanks for the kind words about the match. However I need to provide you guys with some information about the match and the staff.

1. Do to some difficulties that occurred outside of anyones control which prevented the stages from being completed by Wednesday, Kirk and I remained on the range until 7:30pm on Thursday night finishing the set up of stages. I am not sure what time Kirk left but it was after I did at at 7:45 to hold the RO meeting. We did this so the shooters could enjoy the stages without having to wait to complete the set up on Friday morning.

2. Most of the match staff did not get to finish shooting all the stages, every shooter that I know of shot all 10 stages. Most of you know that the match staff gets to shoot the stages with a free entry for working. They did not even get to enjoy the stages.

3. The scoring issue no matter what was tried we could not get the stage results to merge to a final overall. I took the suggestion that someone gave to use one stage, the problem was that we could not even have been 100% positive that one stage had all the results as I discovered when I went into stats to try that approach, I discovered the following: if someone found that they were missing on a stage, they went into stats, that score was entered, then another overall stage results posted....then it would be discovered that the program would drop someone else off. So this then in turn became a viscious cycle with no end in sight as could have done this, found a missing score entered it and then reprinted only to find another score missing thus adding more wait time for the shooters.

4. Lessons were learned and will be applied for future matches.

5. For those that have anger or animosity about the way things happened, please send me an email or PM me and I will be glad to accept your assistance with the FN match or Kirk would be glad to add you to the match list for next year. Many times people forget that all the match staff volunteers their time to host, set up, officiate or manage the match. So please before you turn on the blow torches, consider the time invested by those working the match as it is a considerable amount of time. Just for giggles, I have been tracking my time I have invested as the MD for the FNH USA match. To date I have over 440 hours into planning and working on the match. Now consider this, we are still 3 months away from our match. Shooters only see the match from the days they spend on the range. Most match staff is the an hour before shooters arrive and an hour after the last shooter is done their stage. I encourage anyone to get a true understanding as to what it is like...become a member of the match staff for a major match.

6. As for the prize table, I suggested to Kirk after looking at everything that random draw was the only way to go, luckily we decided earlier in the day to establish the seperate prize tables for divisions, so at least you walked it by your division and not as one big group.

I understood, we would not make everyone happy but unfortunately in the position of making decision you will not make everyone happy or they would not be tough decisions. So we tried to make the best of everything given the unfortunate situation presented.

Hopefully this helps with an understanding of what went on behind the scenes.

Larry

Ozark 3 Gun RM

Thanks for the update Larry. The thing on everyone's mind now is will we ever get to see scores? There were all kinds of rumor of lost scoresheets and stuff like that.

[Chills1994]

that's why I was asking about the carbon copy scoresheets.

if you guys have the yellow copies, then you guys who care, or think you're in the running, why don't ya'll add up your stage scores, and then compare notes?

My condolecences to Kirk and his family. What a stressful time it must be for them.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Chills1994

[sbmd]

Hello everyone.....thanks for the kind words about the match. However I need to provide you guys with some information about the match and the staff.

1. Do to some difficulties that occurred outside of anyones control which prevented the stages from being completed by Wednesday, Kirk and I remained on the range until 7:30pm on Thursday night finishing the set up of stages. I am not sure what time Kirk left but it was after I did at at 7:45 to hold the RO meeting. We did this so the shooters could enjoy the stages without having to wait to complete the set up on Friday morning.

2. Most of the match staff did not get to finish shooting all the stages, every shooter that I know of shot all 10 stages. Most of you know that the match staff gets to shoot the stages with a free entry for working. They did not even get to enjoy the stages.

3. The scoring issue no matter what was tried we could not get the stage results to merge to a final overall. I took the suggestion that someone gave to use one stage, the problem was that we could not even have been 100% positive that one stage had all the results as I discovered when I went into stats to try that approach, I discovered the following: if someone found that they were missing on a stage, they went into stats, that score was entered, then another overall stage results posted....then it would be discovered that the program would drop someone else off. So this then in turn became a viscious cycle with no end in sight as could have done this, found a missing score entered it and then reprinted only to find another score missing thus adding more wait time for the shooters.

4. Lessons were learned and will be applied for future matches.

5. For those that have anger or animosity about the way things happened, please send me an email or PM me and I will be glad to accept your assistance with the FN match or Kirk would be glad to add you to the match list for next year. Many times people forget that all the match staff volunteers their time to host, set up, officiate or manage the match. So please before you turn on the blow torches, consider the time invested by those working the match as it is a considerable amount of time. Just for giggles, I have been tracking my time I have invested as the MD for the FNH USA match. To date I have over 440 hours into planning and working on the match. Now consider this, we are still 3 months away from our match. Shooters only see the match from the days they spend on the range. Most match staff is the an hour before shooters arrive and an hour after the last shooter is done their stage. I encourage anyone to get a true understanding as to what it is like...become a member of the match staff for a major match.

6. As for the prize table, I suggested to Kirk after looking at everything that random draw was the only way to go, luckily we decided earlier in the day to establish the seperate prize tables for divisions, so at least you walked it by your division and not as one big group.

I understood, we would not make everyone happy but unfortunately in the position of making decision you will not make everyone happy or they would not be tough decisions. So we tried to make the best of everything given the unfortunate situation presented.

Hopefully this helps with an understanding of what went on behind the scenes.

Larry

Ozark 3 Gun RM

Thanks for the update Larry. The thing on everyone's mind now is will we ever get to see scores? There were all kinds of rumor of lost scoresheets and stuff like that.

I have no knowledge of lost scoresheets. The computer program loosing scores yes, but lost scoresheets I am not aware of.

Jesse to answer your question, I have no answer. Kirk would have to asnwer this one. I am sure they will still try to work on it but it may require a manual calculation which with 250+ competitors would take at least 3-4 weeks of someone working on it during thier non-wage earning time.

Larry

Edited September 13, 2011 by sbmd

[GorillaTactical]

Nick Atkinson of AR15Targets and Legion Firearms shooting the match:

Edited September 13, 2011 by GorillaTactical

[wi shooter]

that's why I was asking about the carbon copy scoresheets.

if you guys have the yellow copies, then you guys who care, or think you're in the running, why don't ya'll add up your stage scores, and then compare notes?

My condolecences to Kirk and his family. What a stressful time it must be for them.

That's fine for the Open guys, because there is only around a dozen of them (and they already did that, at the match)but its kinda tough when there were around 170 tac op shooters.

[GeneralChang]

I'd like to chime in a bit about the match. I directed the TXMG match and boy was it an undertaking. My wife Marcy and I along with countless others worked tirelessly for months to ensure a fair, efficient and fun match for everyone. I have been to quite a few matches where I saw inconsistent rule application, bitter RO's with an "us vs. them" attitude and I had a year to work all that out. Our intent was to make it a shooting challenge that facilitated a fun social event. We had 3 scoring programs at the ready just in case of any scoring issues. There were countless redundancies in every aspect that might affect the smoothness and overall presentation of the match. Our prize table was lacking because we relied on a person that misrepresented their intentions and we got a late start as a result. Everything was double and triple checked but there was nothing I could do to prepare for a death in my family. That most assuredly would have affected my performance. The scoring issue sucked but in the end we all got to hang out with our pals and shoot. Granted we may never know what the outcome was or who sponsored the match or whatever other questions that remain unanswered but this will pass and it can only get better next time. By no means am I attempting to invalidate anyone's feelings about the match, however there may be some room for a broader contextual view of the situation. Cheers, see you in April.

Sheldon Carruth

[-=VILLAMOR=-]

I would like to thank you all for your compliments, criticism, suggestions, and understanding. As understanding as all of you have been I still feel as though this was a horrific mistake on my part and my part alone. I accept the responsibility that is mine and have only praise, thanks, and appreciation for all my staff. I would like to especially thank Larry for his advise, and counsel during an extremely difficult decision. His experience was a vital part of the success of the match and in the tough decisions that immediately followed. Additionally I would like to thank Darren and Natilie for their tireless, never say die effort to produce a final score. And to Rob, Kyle, and all the ROs, my hat's off, true pros, gentlemen in your own right. Rob and Kyle spent endless days helping with all the prep and worked well into the night on many occasions. Without all of you this would never be possible. Before I lost my phone last week I sent a text to my wife and thanked her for being understanding of my ambitions, I want to thank you all for helping me realize it. God bless you all.

The scores will be posted here, emailed to each competitor and added to the website as soon as possible.

My most humble apologies,

Kirk,

Your a stand-up guy and I respect and thank you for that. Keep your chin up and your spirits high. There will never be a "perfectly ran" match, as there will always be someone who will not be happy about something. But never forget that the majority of us invests in attending these matches because of our love of the sport. Most of us average joes that come to these matches don't expect to win a big prize. We come for a fun time and to be in the company of some great guys. And thats exactly what everyone had despite the issues that arrised afterwards. I hope all the rantings and complaining does not derail you from making this event happen again. The opinions of a few will never outweigh the appreciation of the majority.

We can thank all the sponsors and all the pros who bring attention and support to our sport, but the real thanks goes to guys like you, Larry, and all the RO's and staff who volunteer countless of hours to make this event happen and giving it your best to make the event run as smoothly as possible. It is you guys, not the sponsors or the pros, that are the real driving factor in keeping our sport alive and well. My hat's off to you guys.

Jomar Villamor