3quartertime Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Ok,,, In answer to Ron A's rant and to give the other side a voice without impeding on his post lets give the hoser side of the story... Standards stages are designed for shooters that can't move. They want to just stand and shoot. These stages are redundant because a practiced shooter can break a called shot on any range/cover, distance isn't an issue. Shooters that hate hoser stages are static shooters. They feel a disadvantage from movement and want the stage wieghted on accuracy rather than agility. Hoser stages pronounce bad speed trigger control. If you hate hosing than you must not be able to blast at speed with accuracy. Shooting close targets demands that the shooter concentrate on points. The hit factor is so high that anything but an A is a loser. Standards shooters need the room for error. Practical shooting is 'Run-and-gun'... This isn't IDPA for a reason. We like to shoot things fast and accurately. We like to run and shoot. We like to have high adrenalin fun. Sue us!!! Cadence is a serious issue with a hoser stage. Cadence is the essence of USPSA shooting. Standards will never teach me proper cadence. Cadence is all about quick site aquisition and movement. Given enough time anyone can shoot A's at any distance. Ok,,, These are just discussion points. Don't attack me. I'm just trying to throw out some different ideas. I do design stages but I'm not that good. I have a terrific MD at our club that rocks!!! Bring it on!!! (This is a counter rant so feel free to post, but be civil or I will stop it...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 LOL Run and gun doesn't equal hoser. You can have standards that are hoser stages. Sorry to rain on your rant, but since you invited it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Heh ... sounds like someone can't hit As at 50 yards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3quartertime Posted March 13, 2004 Author Share Posted March 13, 2004 Ok,,, For the record there WILL be a 50 yard stage at our club match this month. We'll report on the success. Let the results tell the story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 [False Bravado] BRING IT ON! [/False Bravado] Hey, from all of those John Kerry soundbites, it seems like the catch phrase to use at a time like this. Maybe we should go for, oh, say, 35 yards instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Whoa Dude, where's my car, I've got to shoot 50 yds... If you can do it at 50, you can do it at 7!!! Even on crutches or rollerblades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twix Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Sorry fellas. The only bays suitable for 50 yard shots will be hosting twin 24 round count field courses. It is still D-V-C. If you want a grudge 50 yard side match after we tear down, have at it. Edited to add: Now that I see what this thread is co-joined with, I feel compelled to issue a warning to anyone coming to Riley the third Sunday of March, 2004, that there will be a plethora of no shoot targets on the two field courses. Be brave, be sure, but make sure you be there! TommyB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 3qt - other than the one long standerds classifier we shot at TH last year, in March (or was it April?), exactly how many long range standards stages have you seen at local matches? I know I'm not around much, but most clubs around here don't have room for 50yd shots, and 35yds would be the limit at many places we shoot. Shooting a pistol at distances over 25yds, accurately, unsupported, is a skill in and of itself. It is difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 It's all good. If you can't "stand and deliver" then you can't "move and deliver" either. I like shooting stages that make we work hard to get good hits. I like Standards and I like Field Courses. Any thing can become a drag when it is featured too often. A good mix of all types of shooting is best. I would definitely like to see a return to a larger percentage of Standards excercises and classifier stages in monthly club matches instead of nothing but run-n-gun extravaganza's. I like em, but IMHO they just don't test shooting fundamentals as well as they test footwear traction properties and the cycle time of your gun -- Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Whoa! Never knew there were so many people here who don't like Run 'n Gun stages. I really don't enjoy shooting static classifier type standards stages very much at all. It's much cheaper to shoot at a local county range if I just want to stand in one spot and shoot at a stationary target. As I said about a hundred of these DVC argument threads ago , I like stages with a mix of both close and far shots that have a lot of fast movement between shooting positions. How much bandwidth does this type of thread really deserve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Standard exersizes test SHOOTING skills. Run-n-Gun hose fests test ATHLETIC skills. Last I looked...we weren't the United States Practical ATHLETIC Association. Good course design makes the shooter MOVE and SHOOT using a variety of different challenges such as shooting position, target distance AND shot difficulty. When we get an abnormal balance of either standards or run-n-gun...course design suffers. Given the choice between a challenging "standard exersize" and a short distanced, open target run-n-gun fest....show me the 50 yard line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 You asked for it.... The guys that like hoser stages are often B-class and below...and they haven't learned how to call thier shots. Mostly, they shoot with a target focus. You could take the front site off of their gun and they would never know the difference. They get caught up in the "speed trap". And, never ask about points...or misses. (lets rename this thread the FFW. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Oh man, I love the run and gun stages. But I still dislike hoser stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3quartertime Posted March 13, 2004 Author Share Posted March 13, 2004 Sorry fellas. The only bays suitable for 50 yard shots will be hosting twin 24 round count field courses. It is still D-V-C. Ok, so my 50 yarder got shot down,,,but the field courses with no-shoots sound fun and challenging so maybe another time. We'll get that MD extraordinare to design something with a long shot or two this summer. ( TL, feel free to keep looking for your car, we'll let you know when we're ready. ) The guys that like hoser stages are often B-class and below... Maaaaan,,,that hits me right in the classification!!! But I still would like to have Blake M's speed even if I had to give up some points. Shooting that fast pegs out the cool meter!!! exactly how many long range standards stages have you seen at local matches? Your right, we may be one of the only clubs locally that could actually set up a stage with a shot that long. It would be fun to see the faces of the shooters when they see a target that far out thou,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpolans Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 I like Standards because they emphasize the fundamentals of IPSC shooting. I guess it's sorta like martial arts kata. To me, they seem particularly important because we've lost a lot of the fundamental stuff in our headlong rush towards high-caps and hose-fests. With 27 round mags, how often do you really need to do a mag change? Almost never. Compared to back in the day of 8 (or even 10 round mags), this is a HUGE shift! IMHO, we've lost a BIG chunk of the game right there. We used to worry about where we performed our reloads. We used to have a VERY strong incentive to make darn sure our hits were there, because if they weren't and we had to fire a make up shot, we'd be stuck with a standing reload somewhere and the extra 1-3 seconds that would cost us. Now, we almost never have to worry about a reload and just spend the extra 0.20 seconds to fire an extra shot without thinking twice. Reloading in itself is almost a lost skill. I used to dryfire a lot trying to be like Todd Jarrett...in one of the U.S. Nationals videos from about 10 years ago, they had some footage of him doing an AMAZINGLY fast reload...mag still in the air and he was reloaded and ready to shoot! Short distance run'n'guns let shooters be pretty lax on accuracy. This has already been detailed before, so I won't beat a dead horse. Also, how often do you shoot a stage that has a strong/weak hand only component? Probably rarely or not ever. Ditto, for going kneeling/prone. Standard exercises demand all of these skills and penalize heavily those that don't have them. I'm not advocating that we replace all hoser stages with standards, but I think one per match isn't asking too much. They're pretty easy to run, and you can probably run several shooters at once so that if they're set up right, it'll move quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 Ok, so my 50 yarder got shot down,,,but the field courses with no-shoots sound fun and challenging so maybe another time. We'll get that MD extraordinare to design something with a long shot or two this summer. ( TL, feel free to keep looking for your car, we'll let you know when we're ready. ) James, I thought you were match director for next week? Or is D-Lo coming back into the mix early? So what are we shooting in that bay? In any case, if we can't do it this time, we can always do it next month. In fact, we could set two or three of the same stage side by side and run them 1,2,3 then go score and paste. I say we make it for lots of points, too! HAHAH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3quartertime Posted March 13, 2004 Author Share Posted March 13, 2004 I'm still wearing the MD hat this month, but Twix wanted to add a couple of field courses. (didn't like my stand and shoot standards ones...huh) D-Lo will be back in April. He's busy masterminding big-match stages... Yea we'll highjack the big bay this spring sometime. My idea,,, Three modified El Prez's. Proceedures the same as the classifier but we change the distance. 1st stage: El Rhino Prez...50yards 2nd stage: El Nino Prez...25yards 3rd stage: El 3qt Prez.......5yards Waddaya think??? Wait a minute,,,I just realized my thread got drifted...JOEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 3/4: I would never set up an El Pres. at 25 yards. FWIW, the vast majority of field courses that I set up don't have a target beyond 15 yards (bay restrictions) with most at 8-12 yards. My courses are also not punitive (like a NS behind a plate at 15 yards). When I get a chance I'll draw up and post a diagram of how I took a hoser course and turned it into a non-hoser course without increasing distances. Gotta run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3quartertime Posted March 13, 2004 Author Share Posted March 13, 2004 Hey Ron, Didn't mean to imply that you would have set-up the stage like that. Just couldn't think of anything else to call the middle stage!!! It was more of a tribute to you for starting the hoser rant. Made me start thinking of fun stage ideas for long range shots. I'll change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted March 13, 2004 Share Posted March 13, 2004 How about we do Vice Prezes instead? For some reason, the idea of having everyone do the turn AND think about shooting at 50 yards creeps me out! Actually ... what's the most hits we can have on a target before scoring? Should we just to the 50 and 10 or 50 and 25? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 (edited) 3QT Just to clarify the Original Rant - 10.0+ hit factors mean that A hits are less important. To the point that shooting all C hits in 15.7sec beats shooting all A hits in 19.9sec. _________________________ Just a thought. I've seen more people quit because of revolver/SS-neutral courses than from difficult shots in a stage. Seen a whole lot of overweight or bum-leg guys watch a FridayNite fun match, get excited all about it, shoot a few matches, then quit. Because they can't sprint from point A to point B. Ever. Rough guess is I've seen that happen 25-30 times in the last 6 years. A lot of those guys shot all A's and one-for-one on steel. But running... The number of members in uspsa is declining, year by year. As a skinny, fast-running guy, this still concerns me quite a bit. If move-and-shoot was mostly walk-and-shoot (with some skill involved) then we might have more participation. And one stand&shoot per match probably wouldn't scar anyone permanently. Just my $.02.... Edited March 15, 2004 by caspian28r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 The guys that like hoser stages are often B-class and below...and they haven't learned how to call thier shots. Which is why they will never win a National Championship. ;) Shooting quickly and accurately is the essence of the sport. And knowing you are doing that while doing it is the secret to winning. It doesn't matter what distances the targets are - Hosing is a concept champions have nothing to do with. Shooting precisely at speed, is. It's a limitation to categorize stages as hoser, or accuracy. Regardless of target size or distance, you should always be doing the same thing. Okay... sorry for getting serious - I forgot I was in the Hate forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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