Jeff P Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 No we do not make such a powder nor do any one else for that kind of velocity (a 5 inch barrel with 124 FMJ going 1,290FPS) Also the +P+ is an unofficial pressure limit which has not be quantified yet officially by any controlling/standards authority. The +p allows for an increase of 3500Psi on top of the standard 35000Psi which takes it to 38500Psi. That will be achieved if you typically increase the standard chargemass by ca +7.5% ca 0.4grains. However, that will only increase the velocity by ca 5.4% = 55Fps. To achieve the 1280-1300Fps you will have to increase the chargemass typically by 33.4% which will take the pressures in excess of 50000Psi depending on what powder you are using. I do not know of any gun maker who will endorse that kind of pressures. Regards Johan Loubser Ballistician Ramshot.Accurate Powders Tel: 406.234.0422 email: johan@ramshot.com WesternPowdersInc.Miles City.Montana. COMPANY WEBSITES/PRODUCTS: www.ramshot.com www.accuratepowder.com www.montanaxtreme.com www.blackhorn209.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 i'm sure it's the same for 38super. lynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle O Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Liability....sigh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolex Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 O! and I have been shooting my .9mm open gun for three years like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrawandDuck Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 If we followed all the manuf. specs and guidelines we would still be throwing rocks at targets... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Mfgr: "Sure, just use 8.0 gr of SuperPowderX and you'll get all the pressure you need". Consumer: "Dear sirs, I tried your recommended load in my dads old Walther P38 and it blew up and I lost my hand. My lawyer will contact you." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffWard Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Side of a McDonald's Coffee Cup: "WARNING! Contents Are Hot!" Side of a 9-Major Open Gun: "WARNING! Contents Under Extreme Pressure!" One of these is true... JeffWard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxbat Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Anyone tried their 9 Major ammo in their Glocks? The Quick Load simulation shows pressure of 50,000psi for one of the loads that I use a lot. The model is in reasonably good agreement with my chrono results. The powder maker's position is understandable... but so what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) Uh, Cor-Bon sells a 9mm load with a 125gr JHP, that they list as 1250fps out of a 4" barrel.....just saying. Not only that, but they're working off factory type OALs....not 1.160 or 1.170" that many 9 Major folks are using. http://www.shopcorbon.com/Self-Defense-JHP/9mm-Luger-Plus-P-125gr-CORBON-Self-Defense-JHP/SD09125-20/100/Product Super is a different matter...it has enough case capacity that you can get enough of a slower powder in it that it's not going to be 50K psi or anything crazy. Rm Edited January 21, 2011 by G-ManBart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Funny thing is, if you try to use normal 9x19 ammo in a P-08 Luger, it won't cycle properly....they need well into the +P range to work....and that was the gun the round was designed for. Hmmmmm.....sorta interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 i'm sure it's the same for 38super. To a lesser degree, depending upon powder choice. There are actually choices in Super that are within SAAMI spec for pressure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Uh, Cor-Bon sells a 9mm load with a 125gr JHP, that they list as 1250fps out of a 4" barrel.....just saying. Not only that, but they're working off factory type OALs....not 1.160 or 1.170" that many 9 Major folks are using. Realize that CorBon has been known to use duplex or triplex loads to achieve those velocities, as well - but, yeah, their loads tend to be pretty high pressure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Uh, Cor-Bon sells a 9mm load with a 125gr JHP, that they list as 1250fps out of a 4" barrel.....just saying. Not only that, but they're working off factory type OALs....not 1.160 or 1.170" that many 9 Major folks are using. Realize that CorBon has been known to use duplex or triplex loads to achieve those velocities, as well - but, yeah, their loads tend to be pretty high pressure... I believe that...there are a couple of companies that load even hotter than Cor-Bon now...Buffalo Bore and Double Tap come to mind Speer lists data for HS-7 and Blue Dot that get 1249fps and 1238fps with 125gr FMJs out of 4" barrels at 1.120"..in a 5" barrel, that should get right up to around 1300fps. VV lists loads with 124gr FMJs and N340, 3N37 and N350 out of a 4" barrel at 1233fps, 1252fps, and 1232fps....again, another inch of barrel, and they're pushing at or near 1300fps...heck, they list a 130gr FMJ load with N105 at 1252fps. I'm not suggesting you disagree....just added those as sort of gee whiz....I'd say it's pushing the limits, but it can be done, especially at the longer OALs most folks are using. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I'm not suggesting you disagree....just added those as sort of gee whiz....I'd say it's pushing the limits, but it can be done, especially at the longer OALs most folks are using. R, Definitely not disagreeing, just pointing out some interesting things about the loads mentioned Heck, "back in the day", we ran SAAMI length 9x21 at old Major w/ 124s... That means nominally a 180 PF. Easy 55K PSI. I knew of guys loading 115s to old Major in Super with the original Schuemann Tribrid barrels. Those loads would blow primers out of the cases... Easy 65K on those... (we're talking "Danger, Will Robinson!" there...). So, I hardly think current Major 9 is truly problematic from a pressure standpoint, as long as you're using quality brass in a well made gun... Maybe it makes sense, now, though, why people see me objecting to using random range brass (so-called "once fired brass" that comes from unknown sources) to load rifle pressures... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff P Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 I asked the same ballistician at Hogden: "Could 1,100FPS be achieved with a 147gr FMJ with any of your powders in +9+?" He responded: "No not for “normal” loading practices. I must just add that some are using slow powders which they then compress heavily to achieve higher velocities. However, the whole internal ballistic process is skewed and normal processes does not apply. For obvious reasons we do not endorse such practices for reloading purposes." Regards Johan Loubser Ballistician Ramshot.Accurate Powders 1,100 FPS??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 There are factory loads that make major with 147 grain bullets. They wouldn't give as much gas as the heavy 115 loads that are popular, but even mainstream powders like Power Pistol or Blue Dot will run a 147 grain JHP over 1000 FPS pretty easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 i'm sure it's the same for 38super. lynn Nope. Case volume for super and it's variants is greater so pressures will be lower. Couple that with beefed up case webs for Comp and TJ brass and you wonder just how far folks are pushing used commercial brass. It is no surprise that 9Major loads are in the 55K+ range. Read the archives and you will see that this has been discussed for years. Folks believe just what they choose to believe even when credible evidence states otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 There are factory loads that make major with 147 grain bullets. They wouldn't give as much gas as the heavy 115 loads that are popular, but even mainstream powders like Power Pistol or Blue Dot will run a 147 grain JHP over 1000 FPS pretty easy. Yeah, but the very few factory 147 loads that will make Major just barely make it...166-167PF is typical. PP and Blue Dot will do it in some guns, but only right at max charges, so I'm not so sure how easy that really is. Still, there are quite a few powders that can manage 1000fps+ without hurting things. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Liability. No powder manufacturer is going to endorse a 9 major load. A few years ago i was on the phone with the guys at Hodgdon, and mentioned that I was using HS-7 for Major 9 in a Glock. He asked what my load was. I said "9.2 HS-7, 124 gr Precision Delta, at 1.150 OAL". Dead silence. Thought the connection had dropped. Finally after about 10 seconds I got "Ummm---that's a ways over the load tables" FWIW (no more HS-7) that load ran 172 PF day in and day out, and wouldn't even flatten Federal primers. I reloaded some of the brass over 10 times--no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhyrlik Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Stop taunting the ballisticians. It's like poking a tiger with a stick. One day the ballistician will leave his lab, hunt you down, and shove a can of HS-6 up your rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tunakilla Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 I think it was an article written by the chief ballistcian at Accurate Powders (Marty Liggins?) that was published in a few magazines in the late 80's that killed major 9 then. For fear of Liability, the USPSA outlawed it then unless it was loaded out to 1.250 or longer. Ok for the 1911 but not possible with the small framed P9 or similar. First I would never fire a Major 9 round in a SAAMI Spec gun, we have made major improvements in the design of the barrel and guns that allow us to run much higher pressures. The SAAMI spec is what the manufacturer must design their production pistols to handle. So lets stop putting the scare in the powder manufacturers as they may not understand what we are doing and why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walküre Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 First I would never fire a Major 9 round in a SAAMI Spec gun, we have made major improvements in the design of the barrel and guns that allow us to run much higher pressures. The SAAMI spec is what the manufacturer must design their production pistols to handle. So lets stop putting the scare in the powder manufacturers as they may not understand what we are doing and why. Except that, as pointed out in several posts above, there are numerous published loads in manuals from recognized bullet and powder manufacturers that would be on the brink of major in a 5"+ barrel. Take for instance the Speer 124gr HS-7 load, at 1249 fps out of a 4" barrel. Speer explicitly states that "the listed loads do not exceed the industry maximum pressure of 35,000 psi". That means that this 155PF load out of a 4" barrel isn't even in +P territory yet, if everything is truly as Speer states it. Out of a a 5" barrel, it wouldn't be unreasonable to see another 50 fps on that load, giving us a 161PF - already major for IPSC. That gives us 3500 psi of chamber pressure to make up another 30fps or so to hit 165PF for USPSA major and still be within SAAMI +P spec. (SAAMI does in fact define 9mm +P, as noted in the OP.) People tend to go "OMGWTFBBQ 9 MAJOR IS SO HOT"... but really, it's not really that hot in current incarnations (depending on your exact load, of course). Sure, it's still going to be hotter than what we're running in Production guns, and it's going to wear down more on guns (especially those not built for a steady diet of +P), but it's not always the some crazy +P+++ round that some people think it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will_M Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 The 9x19 cartridge is over a hundred years old. Meaning that some guns that are chambered in the cartridge are at least that old. In the past 100 years metallurgy has made leaps and bounds in different alloys and strength of steel. I'm not surprised the powder manufacturer told you that. Like Graham Smith said, if you put a 9 major pressure load in an old Luger, its chamber is probably not as strong as a modern barrel. They have to spec based on the weakest link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 You can anything YOU like in YOUR gun. Most of the firearms we use are not standard guns, especially in Open Class, where we will only see the need for 9mm Major. So what we are doing is not "normal" as far as pretty much the rest of the reloading and ammo manufacturing world is concerned. But to us, loading the begeezers out of the gun is quite normal. For anything under the case capacity of 9x25 Dillon anything 9mm / 38, i would say the top load out of the book is where we start. There are plenty of heavy bullet laods to be found in 9mm and 38Super that make major. Look about and they are there. 9mm as previously stated is only just major. I felt that there was no advantage in using the 9mm over 38Super or Super Comp for my needs. I just prefer it that way. That is not to say I am bagging the 9 for major. I just don't see the advantage for me. Keep a close eye on what you do and you will be OK. And stop anoying the powder technicians, because when you do make amistake they will giggle all the way to your funeral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmorris Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9x19mm Parabellum is set at 35,001 psi. The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9x19 mm Parabellum +P is set at 38,500 psi. All +P+ means is that its over 38,500 psi. From 38,501 all the way to Kaboom is +P+. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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