DocMedic Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) Well most of us have experienced it, Anything lighter then the Stock M&P pro Recoil spring and you run the risk of the gun not locking up completely. Last season during the summer I was able to get away with a 13 lbs ISMI spring with a lot of gun glide, but the weather started to get cold, and the pistol started to jam up pretty consistently between light primer strikes and the pistol not completely going to full battery. Another thing I notice when doing Strong hand / Weak hand transitions, I somehow get the gun to go out of battery causing FTF on my first pull of the trigger causing me to go to immediate action. Switching back to the OEM Spring and Rod helped the jamming issue but I believe someone posted here that the stock recoil spring is somewhere between 16 to 16.5 lbs, and I can tell the difference between how the gun reacts with a 13 lbs recoil spring vs the heavier stock one. With the stock spring I feel that I have to fight the gun so that on the return of the slide doesn't push my aim lower. With the 13 lbs spring, the forward "push" of the slide wasn't overwhelming and I could keep my front sight were I aimed it. With this season I really want to be able to run my 13lbs spring and if possible a lighter 11 lbs spring closer to my 9mm 1911. So far I believe friction has a bit to do why the gun doesn't lock up fast with a lighter spring, So I removed the blu'ing and polished the inside chamber of my barrel (stock barrel) and from now on, I will be polishing / cleaning my loaded bullets (were in the past I wouldn't clean them after loading them, which left a little bit of lube from Oneshot on the casing.) I've polished the Ejector(?) and also put a bit of a angle on the edge and thinning the "bullet" side so the rounds from a loaded mag don't touch it. I might also try to polish the ejection hole of the slide were it meets the barrel and "slides" up to lock. I'm not sure were I read this but I remember someone said that the plunger can also slow the slide down during recoil, I'm not sure what the "plunger" is? I was wondering if anyone else had any suggestions on what I could try, or even just get a open discussion started on this to see what can be done. Also the gun has full Apex parts minus RAM, and trigger job done on it. Edited January 11, 2011 by DocMedic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 The striker spring works to keep the slide open. I just did some testing today actually with a lighter Glock striker spring and a 14# ISMI recoil spring (which before I swapped the striker spring caused the same problems you are having). 200 rounds today and no jams or misfires. There's a sanctioned IDPA match this weekend and I'm a glutton for punishment so I will use my barely tested new setup there and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 DocMedic> A big part of running lighter recoil springs is to have a solid grip. The weaker your grip the more slide cycle energy is absorbed by the muzzle flip process. This is exagerated when you do one handed shooting because you have less muzzle flip contol when shooting with one hand. To get away with running a light slide spring on any pistol you must have a solid grip. How light of a slide spring you can shoot and have it cycle reliably is very dependant upon each shooters grip. When I was building up a Limited Minor gun I could shoot a 6lb recoil spring and it would cycle perfectly for me without any issues. It also had ZERO muzzle flip when I shot it. But when I would have others shoot it they would have failer to feed jams because they would allow it to muzzle flip. I would have to put an 8lb or 10lb recoil spring in it to have it run reliably for other shooters depending on how solid their grip was. The weaker their grip, the stiffer recoil spring that I would have to put in it. Since the recoil spring and striker spring fight against one another when the M&P is cocked this fighting condition reduces the lockup force on the cambered round. XD's experience this exact same situation. To reduce this Recoil/Striker spring fighting process you can lighten the striker spring by cutting coils off of it. The weaker the striker spring is the more secure the lockup is going to be when using a light recoil spring. But if you go to a striker spring that is too light you will start to have light strikes because the striker does not have enough striking force to ignight the primers. Its all a balancing act and you need to optimize everything, including your ammo. If I was shooting Production and wanted to fully optimize the recoil and striker springs I would use the softest Primer I could get, such as federal primers. This would allow me to use a striker spring that was really light but still yeild solid primer hits. The key is finding a spring and primer setup that works for YOUR grip and shooting style. I can tell you that I run a 11lb recoil spring with 2 coils cut off and an APEX Competition striker spring with 4 coils cut off and that works with CCI primers. But this setup works for me, my grip, and my shooting style. This setup may or may not work for you because your grip and shooting are different than mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 As for the ejecting issues, have you tried changing the depth of the extractor? You should be able to tune the depth of how far the extractor hook extends towards the center of the breach face. Changing this depth greatly changes the engagement force the extractor hook has on the rim of the case. Try increasing the extractor hook engagement force by increasing its travel depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike cyrwus Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 same thing happens to glocks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 same thing happens to glocks. Only a heck of a lot easier to get right. My PRO was doing the same thing. After switching parts around and going back and forth to the range several times just to get the gun to run I gave up on it and bought my G34. So far I have been able to change parts at will and it has never failed me. If anybody is making an extended striker for the M&P yet that may help with a light striker spring. But I agree, the light recoil spring with stock striker spring won't cut it. Like the OP said transitioning from one hand to the other can mess with his gun. I could shake mine out of battery quite easily as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 So far I believe friction has a bit to do why the gun doesn't lock up fast with a lighter spring, So I removed the blu'ing and polished the inside chamber of my barrel (stock barrel) and from now on, I will be polishing / cleaning my loaded bullets (were in the past I wouldn't clean them after loading them, which left a little bit of lube from Oneshot on the casing.) I've polished the Ejector(?) and also put a bit of a angle on the edge and thinning the "bullet" side so the rounds from a loaded mag don't touch it. I might also try to polish the ejection hole of the slide were it meets the barrel and "slides" up to lock. I'm not sure were I read this but I remember someone said that the plunger can also slow the slide down during recoil, I'm not sure what the "plunger" is? I was wondering if anyone else had any suggestions on what I could try, or even just get a open discussion started on this to see what can be done. Also the gun has full Apex parts minus RAM, and trigger job done on it. I think you're on the right track here. I had a friend who had an M&P that did the same thing, so his gunsmith reamed the chamber with a Clymer 9mm chamber reamer, and the problems went away. He thinks the chamber being coated on the inside, with the same finish thats on the slide was causing the friction, and slowing down the extraction to the point he was having problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Lord Gomer Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I'm not sure were I read this but I remember someone said that the plunger can also slow the slide down during recoil, I'm not sure what the "plunger" is? Also called the firing pin block or, more accurately, the striker block: https://apextactical....php?pid20.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred5876r Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I have been running a 13# ISMI on my 9L with 100% function, including an IDPA match the other day with temps in the low teens. I use TW25B synthetic grease on the slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 11# springs are really pretty borderline. With one in place you can literally shake the gun out of battery (easily). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70116 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 DocMedic> A big part of running lighter recoil springs is to have a solid grip. The weaker your grip the more slide cycle energy is absorbed by the muzzle flip process. This is exagerated when you do one handed shooting because you have less muzzle flip contol when shooting with one hand. To get away with running a light slide spring on any pistol you must have a solid grip. How light of a slide spring you can shoot and have it cycle reliably is very dependant upon each shooters grip. When I was building up a Limited Minor gun I could shoot a 6lb recoil spring and it would cycle perfectly for me without any issues. It also had ZERO muzzle flip when I shot it. But when I would have others shoot it they would have failer to feed jams because they would allow it to muzzle flip. I would have to put an 8lb or 10lb recoil spring in it to have it run reliably for other shooters depending on how solid their grip was. The weaker their grip, the stiffer recoil spring that I would have to put in it. Since the recoil spring and striker spring fight against one another when the M&P is cocked this fighting condition reduces the lockup force on the cambered round. XD's experience this exact same situation. To reduce this Recoil/Striker spring fighting process you can lighten the striker spring by cutting coils off of it. The weaker the striker spring is the more secure the lockup is going to be when using a light recoil spring. But if you go to a striker spring that is too light you will start to have light strikes because the striker does not have enough striking force to ignight the primers. Its all a balancing act and you need to optimize everything, including your ammo. If I was shooting Production and wanted to fully optimize the recoil and striker springs I would use the softest Primer I could get, such as federal primers. This would allow me to use a striker spring that was really light but still yeild solid primer hits. The key is finding a spring and primer setup that works for YOUR grip and shooting style. I can tell you that I run a 11lb recoil spring with 2 coils cut off and an APEX Competition striker spring with 4 coils cut off and that works with CCI primers. But this setup works for me, my grip, and my shooting style. This setup may or may not work for you because your grip and shooting are different than mine. I'm in complete agreement with CHA-LEE on this one. I've got two 9L's with 11# springs and if I lighten up the grip I have ejection and feed problems. If I regrip strongly, the guns run fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I run an 11# as well. I cut 4 coils off the Apex competition striker spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 (edited) What recoil spring brand do you guys prefer? Wolff or ISMI? I don't see an 11# offered by either. Also, can you buy just the Apex striker spring? I have been using Glock reduced power striker springs from wolf but if you are reliably running an 11# spring and the Apex striker spring I want to try it Edited January 14, 2011 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70116 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 What recoil spring brand do you guys prefer? Wolff or ISMI? I don't see an 11# offered by either. Also, can you buy just the Apex striker spring? I have been using Glock reduced power striker springs from wolf but if you are reliably running an 11# spring and the Apex striker spring I want to try it ISMI Recoil Springs from SSS. Its an uncaptured spring and Ken also has Tungsten and Stainless Guide Rods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I bought an 11# from Speed Shooters Specialties. I'm sure they still sell them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I get my recoils from Shooters Connection. I bought the Apex competition spring kit to get all the springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bongo Boy Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Both my M&Ps are 'rough' when it comes to locking up. Very, very rough. Compared to my SIg or my 1911, the last 1/8" of forward slide travel on the MPs seems to be a real geometry issue. I have to think a lot of energy is needllessly absorbed by poor geometry--I feel a lot of clinking and clanking to achieve lock/battery. But, OTOH, I'm also impressed by the ability of the guns to function with an incredibly broad spectrum of loads. With stock spring, the MP45 handles my 255 gr bullet/3.2gr Clays loads flawlessly, AND handles my Speer Gold Dots just as well. I've not seen a single setup do this bofore without issues. Hard for me to imagine an 11 lb recoil spring on a full size MP frame, with any load. I'm running the 13 IMSI spring with no issues and minor PF loads. But, not sure what the motivation would be to go lighter. I feel it may be getting to the point of 'sluggish', and with that big Pro 5" slide, you need some spring in there to get things done quickly, no? So, I think if you manually cycle the guns, you've got to agree: lock up is pretty nasty. It's just something going on that feels wrong. Lots of room for improvement here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 The point is a flatter gun. If a 9lb spring existed, I would run it. It's not sluggish at all. Lock up on my borrowed Pro is just fine. The second to last stage was two bill drills with a tactical or retention reload. I was down 1. But my point to sharing the vid is, note the brass streaming out. It's very, very consistent now. I've adjusted the ejector as well as tuned the extractor. I borrowed a full size and shooting it stock, there was a HUGE recoil difference. I shoot Blazer Brass 9mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSWEAR Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) I have a M&P9 4 1/4" that I have ran several thousand rounds thru with the SSS stainless guide rod and 13lb spring and have also ran a couple thousand rounds with the 11lb spring with no issues. I ran it with stock springs and the 13 and Apex springs and the 13 and 11 both. A friends Pro that I put Apex sear and FP block and springs in runs great with the SSS stainless guide rod and a 13lb spring, it ran ok with an 11lb spring and didn't really malfunction but sure seemed liked it wanted to at times. Edited January 17, 2011 by GSWEAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LikesToShoot Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 There doesn't appear to be an "one size fits all" type of solution. Some can run at #9 and others require #14 or more??? How strange is that? (Mine needs #14) I LOST a sactioned match trying a #13 ISMI. My mistake, I should have test fired more before the match. Now, I won't run anything less than a #14 anymore. IMHO. You can't win a match with one stage but you a CAN loose a match in ONE stage with a failure drill. Nice vid. want2race! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 (edited) Mine wouldn't run with the 14# without changing to a lighter striker spring. Now that the 14 runs with no issues I want to try lower. I use federal primers and don't any problems with light strikes but YMMV. Edited January 17, 2011 by waktasz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 If you need to run a really light spring to make a Pro or 9L shoot flat, you may consider looking at your grip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I just like throwing parts at non existent problems . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 If you need to run a really light spring to make a Pro or 9L shoot flat, you may consider looking at your grip Thanks, I'll work on that. Here's some major PF shooting. http://www.youtube.com/user/want2race441#p/u/16/rWxSfohHV6Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tk4 Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I get my recoils from Shooters Connection. I bought the Apex competition spring kit to get all the springs. Shaun, Are you running all three springs from the Apex competition spring kit? Any light primer hit problems at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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