John Z Sr Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 How 'bout Major matches have a chrono built into the COF, say shoot through a barrel and chrono is inside ( protected of course) and have the stage set as to make it not obvious to the shooter. Like Paul, I feel that most do not deliberately cheat, but those that do should be caught. If someone tarvels and spends lots of $$$ on a big match, are they really stupid enough to risk it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 For every solution, there's going to be a creative cheater. I seriously doubt that the guys trying to win the match are taking risks with their ammo or are cheating to win. My personal feeling is that the current system works. The collection method is the flaw... so the solution is taking 8 rounds off the belt. There will still be the guy carrying a cheater mag, but seriously... they're not the guy that's shooting for 1st... they're shooting for 1st B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Gary Stevens wrote back on page 2: Assuming you could develop a random chronograph process that would work, it is still illegal per rule. Then change the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Skydiver back on the 2nd page wrote: Still won't work... The guys without the hand stamps wil start putting in their "chrono ammo", and the one with the"chrono" handstamps can start putting in their "match ammo" since their bullets have already been collected. It also gets down to the point that that the last persons without a stamp know that their bullets will be collected there are ways around that too. at everybody's first stage of the day still have the RO's do the "okay, everybody I need 8 rounds from you guys to be put in these zip locks bags, and be sure to attach one of your scoresheet labels to the baggie..." then that ammo gets transported over to the chrono stage. the people who are out to cheat will then think they are in the clear and switch to their "match ammo" so then sill do the random selection thing like I outlined on page 2. if the RO's at the chrono stage have two samples from a shooter(s) and the rounds look different or are marked differently (different colored stripes across the headstamp) there's the first clue to go with the randomly selected sample. or to draw a few rounds from each bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 How 'bout Major matches have a chrono built into the COF, say shoot through a barrel and chrono is inside ( protected of course) and have the stage set as to make it not obvious to the shooter. Like Paul, I feel that most do not deliberately cheat, but those that do should be caught. If someone tarvels and spends lots of $$$ on a big match, are they really stupid enough to risk it? Except that the rulebook outlines a specific procedure for chronographing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Gary Stevens wrote back on page 2: Assuming you could develop a random chronograph process that would work, it is still illegal per rule. Then change the rule. No need to, it works just fine in respects to the actual chronographing. Ammo collection might be another thing though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 The 2006 (I think) USPSA 3 Gun Nationals at Albany did 'random' testing. You were picked at random to chrono rifle or pistol ammo. I think from our squad, there was 1 person chosen for each? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Assuming you could develop a random chronograph process that would work, it is still illegal per rule. Gary, Apparently there, has been or is much more "suspected cheating", ongoing than I've ever thought in 30+ years of shooting these matches. I've been shooting since we tested with the gong and timed with stop-watches, like you. I've witnessed maybe 3 people over the years that may have not been shooting what was declared. My exposure has been mainly east coast. You've traveled much more than I in this sport. Have I missed something? Stop watches!! Yes, I remember that well:) I don't think there is wide spread cheating going on. There are some who run very close to the edge regardless, and sometimes they fall off (minor or sub-minor). Things happen. I do believe there are "some" individuals that might take advantage of a situation, but that can be handled within the process we currently have. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 as far as how prevalent the "match ammo" thing is...I don"t think it is that prevalent either. We just hear about it more because we are on this forum. Back in the gong and stopwatch days you didn't have the internet . But then again....at my home club/range with the recent influx of new gun owners (thanks Obama) our membership is well over 1,000 and all of a sudden we have problems with stuff getting torn up and shot up. we had to install surveillance cameras and an electronic key card gate system. swipe your card, the gate goes up and let's you in all under the watchful eye of the cameras. meanwhile the computer tracks when you swiped in and swiped out. soooo....maybe some of today's shooters are different versus 30 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 But then again....at my home club/range with the recent influx of new gun owners (thanks Obama) our membership is well over 1,000 and all of a sudden we have problems with stuff getting torn up and shot up. we had to install surveillance cameras and an electronic key card gate system. swipe your card, the gate goes up and let's you in all under the watchful eye of the cameras. meanwhile the computer tracks when you swiped in and swiped out. Chills PM me, please. Our club is having a similar problem and is considering a similar solution. I'd like to know how well it has worked and what (if any) the drawbacks may have been. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Gary Stevens wrote back on page 2: Assuming you could develop a random chronograph process that would work, it is still illegal per rule. Then change the rule. Again, why? Other than the "usual procedure" used to collect ammo currently, what exactly is wrong with chrono? Current rules require everyone to partake, allow for retesting, and pretty much mandate (in conjunction with the RM) a professional stage..... Improving the quality of the ammo collection process isn't hard in theory -- though it would involve staffing chrono with ~ 4-6 ROs..... For some matches that might be hard. Is everyone willing to pay the extra match fee that will be required to staff chrono in that manner? Will matches be able to recruit the staff they need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 For every solution, there's going to be a creative cheater. I seriously doubt that the guys trying to win the match are taking risks with their ammo or are cheating to win. My personal feeling is that the current system works. The collection method is the flaw... so the solution is taking 8 rounds off the belt. There will still be the guy carrying a cheater mag, but seriously... they're not the guy that's shooting for 1st... they're shooting for 1st B. The guy carrying the cheater mag won't have a choice as to which ammo gets chosen..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 whoever has the "CHRONO" stamp on their hand can go over to the chrono stage at any time say like before or after lunch and at the end of the first day or between stages. the chrono RO's then look through their boxes of collected samples finds the labeled zip lock bag and runs that ammo through that guy's gun. then he stamps the guy's hand with "MAJOR" or "'MINOR" or "NOT FOR SCORE"....then that shooter goes back with the rest of his squad to whatever the next stage is. the side benefit of course is that the competitors show the rest of their squadmates that they have been checked and are in the clear. Don't stop there. Go all the way. Stamp their forehead with the label! Seriously, this starts at the local level. If you have a mate who's load seems "light", let them know. Invite them to chrono with you sometime. They may not have access to one and you'd be doing them a favor. Once you show them they are too light, THEN you can mount that ass like a rented mule and all your efforts will be worth it! The vast majority of shooters I've met in this sport want to do the right thing. A few might be out of bounds and not even know it. During my time in this sport (and working some major matches) I've seen precious few 'cheaters'. I think I know what to look for. Most could maybe be called "blissfully ignorant", but cheater would be over the line. Education is the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 I was just waiting for somebody to say stamp their foreheads. it really doesn't have to be all that complicated with ink stamps and all that. I just "spingboarded off" the idea of the Iraqi people getting their right index fingers dipped in ink to show that they had voted in their first democratic elections, ever...which I am ASSuming was a way to keep down voter fraud. a beautifully simplistic way to do things. everybody throws their 8 rounds in a zippie at their first stage. then the scorekeepers snags a discarded mag at "random" throughout the day say like the third shooter in every squad that comes through. I would think you could get by with the same number of RO's at the chrono stage, just like normal. again, I am thinking it really is not that much of a problem, but then again I could swear this topic has come up at least three times within the past year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 IF my objective was to cheat by getting scored major, even though I was shooting minor (or shooting minor even though I was really shooting sub-minor), the way I would go about it order the official match ammo, and then tweak my barrel (or find an old used barrel) until I was shooting minor (or subminor). No need to stress about random testing as long as my gun shoots consistently within 10 PF. C3. Official Match Ammunition Competitors using Official Match Ammunition are exempt from the requirements of Appendix C2, Items 38 and 39 as appropriate for the declared power factor. C3. Power Factor Specific ammo products may be certified as meeting Minor or Major power factor for specific divisions by the US Regional Director C3. Ammo Verification At any match where competitor ammunition will be chronographed, a competitor using official match ammo will have ammo samples collected during the match and chronographed according to the provisions of Appendix C2 #28. Should the ammo so tested fail to meet the declared power factor, it shall be compared against the average of three rounds collected from the official delivery sample. If the samples collected during the match measure more than 10 power factor points below the delivery samples, the measured power factor of the ammo collected during the match shall be used for score and the provisions of Appendix C2, Item 38 or Item 39 shall apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 IF my objective was to cheat by getting scored major, even though I was shooting minor (or shooting minor even though I was really shooting sub-minor), the way I would go about it order the official match ammo, and then tweak my barrel (or find an old used barrel) until I was shooting minor (or subminor). No need to stress about random testing as long as my gun shoots consistently within 10 PF. C3. Official Match Ammunition Competitors using Official Match Ammunition are exempt from the requirements of Appendix C2, Items 38 and 39 as appropriate for the declared power factor. C3. Power Factor Specific ammo products may be certified as meeting Minor or Major power factor for specific divisions by the US Regional Director C3. Ammo Verification At any match where competitor ammunition will be chronographed, a competitor using official match ammo will have ammo samples collected during the match and chronographed according to the provisions of Appendix C2 #28. Should the ammo so tested fail to meet the declared power factor, it shall be compared against the average of three rounds collected from the official delivery sample. If the samples collected during the match measure more than 10 power factor points below the delivery samples, the measured power factor of the ammo collected during the match shall be used for score and the provisions of Appendix C2, Item 38 or Item 39 shall apply. No problem: 50 yard standards, and a few no-shoot surrounded headshots, should make for an interesting match, with a modified or shot out barrel..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 (edited) IF my objective was to cheat by getting scored major, even though I was shooting minor (or shooting minor even though I was really shooting sub-minor), the way I would go about it order the official match ammo, and then tweak my barrel (or find an old used barrel) until I was shooting minor (or subminor). No need to stress about random testing as long as my gun shoots consistently within 10 PF. C3. Official Match Ammunition Competitors using Official Match Ammunition are exempt from the requirements of Appendix C2, Items 38 and 39 as appropriate for the declared power factor. C3. Power Factor Specific ammo products may be certified as meeting Minor or Major power factor for specific divisions by the US Regional Director C3. Ammo Verification At any match where competitor ammunition will be chronographed, a competitor using official match ammo will have ammo samples collected during the match and chronographed according to the provisions of Appendix C2 #28. Should the ammo so tested fail to meet the declared power factor, it shall be compared against the average of three rounds collected from the official delivery sample. If the samples collected during the match measure more than 10 power factor points below the delivery samples, the measured power factor of the ammo collected during the match shall be used for score and the provisions of Appendix C2, Item 38 or Item 39 shall apply. No problem: 50 yard standards, and a few no-shoot surrounded headshots, should make for an interesting match, with a modified or shot out barrel..... Just what I was thinking! Edited January 4, 2011 by GrumpyOne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 No problem: 50 yard standards, and a few no-shoot surrounded headshots, should make for an interesting match, with a modified or shot out barrel..... Just what I was thinking! ROFL! It's like random testing on every shot if it's truly a worn out barrel! I like how your devious mind works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 No problem: 50 yard standards, and a few no-shoot surrounded headshots, should make for an interesting match, with a modified or shot out barrel..... Just what I was thinking! ROFL! It's like random testing on every shot if it's truly a worn out barrel! I like how your devious mind works. Now that I've managed to clear the tears from my eyes from laughing so hard, I just realized that I have a gun that is accurate and doesn't require tweaking. My Witness Match .40 will probably shoot the Major match ammo as Minor. While I was working up loads for it, all the load advice I got from people about their Major loads that they shot out of their STI's, SVI's, and Witness Limited actually came out as Minor. As I recall, on average I was getting about 10-12 PF less than what they claimed their loads were. Since I've seen some of their chrono results from their guns, I know I was given good info. (The consensus from people I've asked is it's the barrel length as well as the rifling on the Witness Match seems to let out more gas.) On the assumption that Delta manufactures the major match ammo for S_I's since that seems to be the most popular guns around, then it's quite likely that I'll get same results. If I ever have to use match ammo, and my primary Limited breaks, I'll have to switch to my backup Match. I hope that I don't get DQ'ed for 10.6.1 given what I've written here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 No problem: 50 yard standards, and a few no-shoot surrounded headshots, should make for an interesting match, with a modified or shot out barrel..... Just what I was thinking! ROFL! It's like random testing on every shot if it's truly a worn out barrel! I like how your devious mind works. Now that I've managed to clear the tears from my eyes from laughing so hard, I just realized that I have a gun that is accurate and doesn't require tweaking. My Witness Match .40 will probably shoot the Major match ammo as Minor. While I was working up loads for it, all the load advice I got from people about their Major loads that they shot out of their STI's, SVI's, and Witness Limited actually came out as Minor. As I recall, on average I was getting about 10-12 PF less than what they claimed their loads were. Since I've seen some of their chrono results from their guns, I know I was given good info. (The consensus from people I've asked is it's the barrel length as well as the rifling on the Witness Match seems to let out more gas.) On the assumption that Delta manufactures the major match ammo for S_I's since that seems to be the most popular guns around, then it's quite likely that I'll get same results. If I ever have to use match ammo, and my primary Limited breaks, I'll have to switch to my backup Match. I hope that I don't get DQ'ed for 10.6.1 given what I've written here. And, do you really think 10-12 PF less will be that much of a break? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 At my current skill level and my grip on my Witness Match, 10PF is enough of a break that I can get the follow up shot's sight picture sooner. On my Witness Limited, it's not enough of a difference unless I'm shooting one handed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 My Witness Match .40 will probably shoot the Major match ammo as Minor... If I ever have to use match ammo, and my primary Limited breaks, I'll have to switch to my backup Match. I hope that I don't get DQ'ed for 10.6.1 given what I've written here. *** NROI EMERGENCY ACTION MESSAGE *** ATTENTION ALL RANGEMASTERS BE ON THE LOOKOUT FOR SKYDIVER SUBJECT IS CONSIDERED ARMED AND MAJORLY MINOR OR MINORLY MAJOR EXTREME CHRONOGRAPHY IS ADVISED *** NROI EMERGENCY ACTION MESSAGE *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 My Witness Match .40 will probably shoot the Major match ammo as Minor... If I ever have to use match ammo, and my primary Limited breaks, I'll have to switch to my backup Match. I hope that I don't get DQ'ed for 10.6.1 given what I've written here. *** NROI EMERGENCY ACTION MESSAGE *** ATTENTION ALL RANGEMASTERS BE ON THE LOOKOUT FOR SKYDIVER SUBJECT IS CONSIDERED ARMED AND MAJORLY MINOR OR MINORLY MAJOR EXTREME CHRONOGRAPHY IS ADVISED *** NROI EMERGENCY ACTION MESSAGE *** ROFL! Not extreme chronography... just random testing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted January 5, 2011 Share Posted January 5, 2011 ROFL! Not extreme chronography... just random testing: Now dat's funny, I don't care who ya are!!!! MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravityBad Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Shot my first big match last Oct with a dedicated chrono stage that everyone went through. I didn't know what to expect and assumed someone would be by at some point and randomly pull rounds from your belt. I was very surprised that they used -verbatim- 'the honor system' and had you place 8 rounds that you chose in a ziplock bag before a shot was fired at everyones respective 1st stage of the day. As you reached the chrono stage, your bag was pulled and 3 rounds generated the average PF. Seemed like this approach defeats the purpose if the competitor gives you the ammo they choose. The chrono stage was quickest of the day although i would say it was the most intimidating for a few who didn't know how it would turn out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now