Lee Cast bullet in S&W 625

[earplug]

In a effort to have a faster reload and keep my sleeping Single Stack fed. I changed my normal cast bullet reload.

I have a six cavity Lee 228 grain 1 radius mold and have had great luck with the bullets in my revolvers.

The one radius design would not chamber reliable in my 1911 Springfield. The Bullet would engage the rifling causing the slide/barrel to not lock into battery. I was using the little crimp grove for a bullet seating gauge. This grove might be for the 45 LC.

So I seated the bullets deeper in my 45 ACP brass until they would drop into my 1911 barrel even with the barrel hood. This was cool as the short rounds loaded real fast in my 625. The Lee taper crimp die was set just slightly past the radius of the bullet.

Over the past two matches, I have had tumbling bullets and leading in my 625.

For some reason the extra bullet jump from the chamber, through the charge hole, into the forcing cone was causing leading that I did not have before. Were talking about 50-60 thousands deeper seating depth.

I don't know if the extra free travel of the bullet or perhaps the Lee factory taper crimp sizing die made the bullet undersized?

Just wanted to share my experience to others who might travel this path.

[mwx40x40]

Under sized would be my first guess.

[GMM50]

What are you using for casting material?

I've found that very hard bullets do not obdurate (expand to fill the barrel).

I've cast wheel weights and tried several goofy combinations but never ran into leading problems.

George

[John Z Sr]

Sending my "Lee" molds back to them today. I've used their molds for 10,000's of bullets and have had similar problems. I did find that 92% range lead, 4% tin and 4%linotype gave me a good alloy, even with the Lee molds. Could be your powder (I have good results with Clays in my 625). I spent way more money on the Lyman 4 cavity mold, little longer bullet, and it seems to work better. This is not a bash on Lee, I have used many of their products over the last 20+ years and most are good, some great, some, well? Best of luck, Merry Christmas and good shooting

[earplug]

Only change I made was seating them deeper allowing them to run in my 1911.

When they were seated longer they worked fine with very little leading in my 625.

I'm still using them as cast unsized with Clays and the same Rooster Jacket lube as before.

[Carmoney]

That little extra jump in leade would not be enough to cause the bullets to tumble. If nothing else has changed, it almost has to be a sizing issue.

[granderojo]

From what I know, I would have to agree with Mike. I was taught that you don't want to do any under sizing after the bullet has been seatedwith the exception of the crimp at the top of thebrass. I used to use a Lee Factory Carbide Crimp Die till I started to see bullet jump in unfired cartridges in the moon clip. The die resizes the loaded bullet and the lead won't rebound like the brass does. The Dillon Crimp die has been working very good for me.

If you want to use the same COL for both pistols, tske the bsrrel and a few of your Revo bullets to a good gumsmith and have the chamber made (cut) a little longer (deeper) so your revo Cols don't hit the rifling. My smith told me that the bottom of the case should go far enough into the barrell that you can see almost all of the chamfer on the under side of the hood. The round should fit below flush with the end of the barrell hood.

I still get some leading whem I shoot lead bulllets even, Laser Cast.

Just a few things that I've learned the hard way. Hope some of it helps.

[Bob DuBois]

Check the measurement of crimp at the very edge of the mouth of brass, should be .0468 to .0472. I try for 470, if the crimp is to tight lead bullets will tumble.

[Mover480]

Have you chrono'd them? Seat deeper-->higher velocity-->more leading

[jasond]

I've ruined some full wadcutter .38 rounds with the lee factory crimp die, maybe you could pull one out of different head stamps and measure them?

[RevolverJockey]

I would almost wonder by seating differently if you are now sizing more against the lead. What I mean by that is the crimp die is only concerned with getting the outside diameter and taper of the brass to a certain size. The die does not concern itself with what is happening inside the brass. If by seating deeper you are sizing more of the bullet you might be crossing over the undersizing line and failing to get a proper gas seal.

I agree with Mike on the OAL part of the question, in my 610, running RN .40, OAL has not ever been a factor and at SAAMI length, I am 3mm shorter than the 10mm ammo the cylinder was intended for. Velocity made a big difference, but I can't say OAL was ever a factor.

The old casting rule of thumb is leading in the start of the barrel - too fast, at the end - not enough lube, all the way down - too hard (or undersized). If you have not changed your alloy and increased velocity significatly, sizing seems to be suspect.

I cast exclusively from range lead and Lee and LBT molds, PM me if you like and we can talk about some casting tricks that might help.

Lee

Edited December 22, 2010 by Mitch_Rapp.45

[John Z Sr]

Hey Mitch rapp,

i found that adding 4% tin to my range lead makes a big difference in the quality. Would love to hear about some of your tricks, the search for perfect bullet/mold/load never ends

[anachronism]

If you're using a LEE Factory Crimp Die for your lead reloads, try using a regular taper crimp die. Factory Crimp Dies are evil, and the natural enemy of cast bullets. The stupid carbide ring often swages the bullet undersize. and causes leading. To check, pull a bullet from one of your reloads & mic it. Chances are, you'll see what we're talking about

[Chills1994]

I'll throw my two cents in....

if you are seating the bullets deeper then theoretically the hot expanding gases are going to drive the pressure even higher.

and with the Lee FCD squishing down the bullet through the case, I am presuming your bullets are actually undersized.

one school of thought on leading in a barrel is that the boolit is actually getting cut by the gases and the gases are able to blow pass the boolit and deposits the lead into the rifling.

that's one theory...anyway.

I am not so sure that a lead boolit at our semi-auto velocities is actually obturating ....the back end swells up....seals the bore better, theoretically...and keeps gases from slipping between the bore and the boolit.

I guess it is possible to have too hard of a boolit

having shot undersized berry's plated boolits, I did have fliers. not so much keyholing.

the keyholing comes from too much lead in the barrel.

[Chills1994]

have you slugged your barrel?

I am not a revolver guy but I swear I read somewhere of a guy's revolver had weird sized chambers on the boolit end.

five shoots would group all nicely, then the sixth chamber consistently threw a flier.

[earplug]

I'm fixed.

The combination of deeply seated bullet and Lee's factory taper crimp resizing made my bullets to small. this caused the leading which lead to tumbling.

I loaded up some of the same bullets, shot the same load and used my RCBS seating/crimping die.

Accuracy is back and no leading problems.

[zdog]

In a effort to have a faster reload and keep my sleeping Single Stack fed. I changed my normal cast bullet reload.

I have a six cavity Lee 228 grain 1 radius mold and have had great luck with the bullets in my revolvers.

The one radius design would not chamber reliable in my 1911 Springfield. The Bullet would engage the rifling causing the slide/barrel to not lock into battery. I was using the little crimp grove for a bullet seating gauge. This grove might be for the 45 LC.

So I seated the bullets deeper in my 45 ACP brass until they would drop into my 1911 barrel even with the barrel hood. This was cool as the short rounds loaded real fast in my 625. The Lee taper crimp die was set just slightly past the radius of the bullet.

Over the past two matches, I have had tumbling bullets and leading in my 625.

For some reason the extra bullet jump from the chamber, through the charge hole, into the forcing cone was causing leading that I did not have before. Were talking about 50-60 thousands deeper seating depth.

I don't know if the extra free travel of the bullet or perhaps the Lee factory taper crimp sizing die made the bullet undersized?

Just wanted to share my experience to others who might travel this path.

I shoot precision bullets in my 625 and have been having some fowling problems. In researching that issue I talked to the folks over at Precision and they said, and it is on their web site, do not use the Lee factory crimp die because it causes the bullet to be undersized and all the problems that go with that.

Zdog

[50GI-Jess]

Hi Guys,

Due to the high prices on bullets, I got into casting again. I had the same problems with my 625 and Lee 230 gr. tumble lube bullets. They do come out to .452-.453 so thats OK. However they keyholed at even 10 yds. whether sized or tumble lubed with Lee Alox. So i hardened them in water, and it all got better.

However, even now that the bullets are harder, they still lead up the barrel. Thats the only thing I don't like about the 625 and the etched rifling. It just won't cut into the bullets like sharp lands do.

Question! Does any of you thin out the Lee Alox with mineral spirits ? Or other stuff! And if so, does it work OK.

Jess

[Intel6]

Even though I now lube all my bullets with my Star lubesizer, I did use the lee tumble lube stuff fo a while. Yes, Mineral sprits will thin out the Alox so you can put on a smoother coating.

Neal in AZ

[RevolverJockey]

I also have a star but use Alox for small batch stuff. One trick I use is to heat up the bottle under the tap and use very little. When you think you have enough it is probably too much already. You are just barely coating, you really shouldn't see it on there.

Lee

[50GI-Jess]

Also, speaking of that Lee 230 gr.RN obviously made for 45ACP, seems to have a design flaw. This in regard to the intended crimp area of the bullet, which when used right, will make the COAL too long for 1911 design. Mine came out to app.1.270 +, which is a little to long for mags and chamber specs.

One would almost have to freebore some more, in the order for the round to chamber and keep preassure where it belongs. Well, just a thought.

[M109R]

With cast bullets size, lube, bullet alloy  and type of powder are the keys to sucess.

The size needs to be large enough for no gas to go around the bullet. Slug your barrel and make the bullets the correct size. A lot of the barrels are over sized and this causes leading and bullet tumbling from the hot gasses melting the dirving bands of the bullets. Using lee molds that is not an option. Now that brings back to lube sizers, and that is why the manufactors make the sizing dies by each thousands. If this was not an issue they would only make one size for each caliber.

Bullet alloy is another big issue!!!! Most people use wheel weights for alloy and in the past that would work for slow rounds like the 45. The old alloy of wheel weights was about 3% to 4% amtimony and a trace of tin, the new alloy for several years now is .3% antimony and trace of tin and copper.

Antimony is the substance that makes bullets hard but tin must also be present. For a good bullet alloy it needs to have at least 6% antimony and 2% tin. I really perfer more antimony and more tin but price stops most of us from using anything else. Linotype from the past was a great bullet allow and made really hard bullets it was 12% amtimony and 2% tin. Antimony is now the problem. Price is going out of sight since China controls it and is making it harder and harder to get. Bullet lead alloy had more than doubled over the last year.

Trust me in this statement there is no cheap way to come up with good bullet metal now days except buy it, and you ask me how I know is because I make about 1.5 to 2 Million cast bullets a year.

Powder plays a small part as well the double base powders burn hot and promote lead bullet problems as well. My experience with this is single base powders like Solo 1000 work a lot better than powders like Tight Group and Clays.

Yes 50GI Jess you know me.!!

[Flexmoney]

I cast exclusively from range lead and Lee and LBT molds, PM me if you like and we can talk about some casting tricks that might help.

Lee

Hey Mitch rapp,

i found that adding 4% tin to my range lead makes a big difference in the quality. Would love to hear about some of your tricks, the search for perfect bullet/mold/load never ends

Yes, please don't hide that info in a PM...share with the rest of us.

That would make a great thread on it's own!

[50GI-Jess]

Hi M109R,

So the buttom line would be, that China pretty much control the quality of lead bullets in America hmm. You won't be soooo'e mouthy this saturday, when my 8-shot smokepole sends your plastic device back to the stoneage.....again !!!

See you soon buddy.

50GI-Jess

[RevolverJockey]

I cast exclusively from range lead and Lee and LBT molds, PM me if you like and we can talk about some casting tricks that might help.

Lee

Hey Mitch rapp,

i found that adding 4% tin to my range lead makes a big difference in the quality. Would love to hear about some of your tricks, the search for perfect bullet/mold/load never ends

Yes, please don't hide that info in a PM...share with the rest of us.

That would make a great thread on it's own!

Any specific direction you thought a thread would be good to go in Flex?

Lee

Edited March 31, 2011 by Mitch_Rapp.45