Collapsible AR stock position...

[kamikaze1a]

I've been running my stock fully extended which gives me "proper" length of pull using the butt in crook of elbow/finger on trigger method. I just noticed at our last monthly match, a couple of the upper class shooters are running with stock set very short. Is it personal preference or something to that setup. Nice weather so no thick clothing or body armor and both were bigger guys so I'm sure their arms are longer than mine...

[JeffWard]

If you are use to shooting a long-gun from the pocket of your shoulder, like a deer rifle, then full length is your position. The modern tactical technique being taught in Defensive/Offensive Carbine classes, has evolved to a squared up body position, with the butt of the stock planted in the middle of the strong-side pectoral, NOT in the pocket of the shoulder. This has evolved, since the war-fighters/SWAT guys employing/teaching it are looking to maximize the effectiveness of their body armor, and blading your body toward your enemy exposes the soft sides. Squared up, with a ballistic plate on your chest, nose to the charging handle, the stock will be fully (or close) collapsed.

This position/technique has crossed over into 3-Gun/Practical Rifle, as adjustable stock use has grown in competition, and the full-size M16A2 style stock is disappearing. Most pistol shooters also shoot squared up, as "Weaver" is virtually gone too. The shoulders stay square to the target as the legs/hips swivel underneath. The two mirrored techniques lend well.

If you watch the top shooters, IF they are running short carbine/M4-style stocks, they are more squared up. If they are running traditional A1/A2 style solid stocks, they tend to be more bladed, and in the pocket.

All the young shooters with sand-box experience, and AMU guys, I imagine are shooting from the Pec, and squared up... I'll go watch my YouTube videos...

Kurt shoots from the shoulder pocket. Daniel (AMU product) shoots from closer to his sternum, and more square... shorter stock.

Jeff

[mpeltier]

Why not ask them next time you see them? Top shooters generaly will be happy to explain why they use a certain technique. I personally believe it will end up bieng that it is just their preferance and nothing more.

It was interesting to see that video above as it was a good illustration of a stage dictating technique. With a parrallel line of movement to the targets all of the shooters engaged from a bladed position, with the rifle pretty much in the shoulder pocket. Daniel and Robbie were noticebly lower and not nose to charge handle, bieng Army guys, you would think NtoCH would be SOP. All their stocks were, or appeared to be full size stocks, not collapsible.

If the stage were running downrange and the targets were more in front of your movement it may have dictated a more squared up stance. It is good to embrace both techniques and not get married to any one as they both have their uses.

I would consider Kurt, Daniel, Robbie and Kelly to be top shooters, not sure who you have at your club. I would recomend finding what works best for you simply by trying both ways (shorter and longer LOP) at the range.

[ninemmbill]

Sometimes shooters are trying to match the eye relief of the scope they are using.

[kellyn]

I don't shoot squared up with a long gun. Eric Lund and Matt Burkett are the only ones who leap to mind who do. I like the length of the A2 stock and run collapsible stocks fully or nearly fully extended. FOR ME squared up seems slower and adds tension to the upper part of my left arm and upper left back. I also feel like I am grasping for the foreend when squard up. It is easier to get further out on the handguard when slightly bladed.

I also feel that I get a lot more recoil control especially with the shotgun when shooting from a slightly bladed stance. You get more body weight behind the shotgun when bladed and allow the legs to work as better shock absorbers.

Finally , I feel that it is easier to move out of a slightly bladed stance as opposed to a squared up one.

[kurtm]

For the last 15 years or so gear has started to dictate how the Military and L.E. shoot, not the other way around. In my opinion...NOTE: ONLY MY OPINION...it hasn't done anything good for actually hitting anything, or contoling recoil...even from a fairly mild recoiling system like the M-4. Gun on pec is only good for standing toe to toe, face to face with your target and letting your armor take hits if necessary. The minute it becomes dynamic, or the target is off of your "center" the rear of the firearm is now in a fairly unsupported area, so we are now kind of "area shooting" which is all well and good if we are close....CQB! but the ranges are starting to extend and we are finding that we aren't getting the hits we did when we were close. Being comfortable and supporting the back of the rifle offers a much better hit probability than being "robo-cop" and I can't see much difference in plate exposure if we take just a half step forward where the ball of your strong side foot is even with the heal of your support side foot. Now we are in a good support position we are comfortable we can shoulder the rifle propperly and we are much more mobile. Robby, Kelly and I shoot almost identically, except I stand up much straighter while Kelly and Robby like to hunch over in a C....Might be the lower back fussion or that I am a bit more lazy, but the actual holding of the rifle and "bladed" stance is the same. Daniel does the same thing, but his right arm drops more instead of "chicken winging out" so it looks more "square" but if you watch it is about the same. KurtM

[Bryan 45]

I tell you what Kurt- when you're on, you're on.

When I shoot a mouse gun I do like to use an adjustable stock, but only because I prefer to be right up on the rear sight, and my arms/neck are too short to do it comfortably with an A2 stock.

It's also much more difficult to get a repeatable position by sticking the butt of the rifle somewhere on the peck. What do you index off? If the butt always goes into the shoulder pocket, it's much easier to guarantee it's in the exact same position.

[TRUBL]

Yeah, Mr. Weakhand knows his stuff thats for sure!

The only thing I can add to that is something I teach in 3 gun classes.

One thing the average shooter forgets is to check his sight set up for ALL positions, prone being the one forgotten the most. I like to key in with my nose to the charge handle (personally) for ALL shooting positions, then I can set my rear aperature correctly for long distance shooting. The same can also apply for magnified optics as well. Many times, at the range, I've seen people screwing around with their scopes on the bench as their 'eye relief' changed from when they mounted the scope; and if it changed for standing to sitting, it'll change when you go from standing to prone....so find a system before the match that works for you.

The follolwing is what worked for me.....and this is meerly a suggestion. What ever your normal LOP is on standard hunting rifle.....go an inch shorter (or more, if you prefer)....but be comfortable with it. If you aren't comfortable, it's not going to work for you; and thats the disclaimer. I do this with both my rifle and shotgun, the bonus of this....IMHO I can bring the weapon up in to position faster.....and at my age (and total lack of practice) I need all the little tricks I can pull out of my bag.

Edited December 21, 2010 by TRUBL

[Jesse Tischauser]

Sometimes shooters are trying to match the eye relief of the scope they are using.

Thats what I do.

[kamikaze1a]

WOW! All great comments. For me, up until recently, long guns were for hunting and handguns for the range. Never realized there were so many methods to consider. Will give a lot of thought and try some of this out. I especially like the same indexing for different positions... Thanks for the tips everyone.

[dchang0]

The pocket is more secure, as there's less motion due to blood flow and breathing, but I prefer to shoot squared-up because I use the nose-to-charging handle method to reduce parallax and eye relief/field of view problems. When I used to shoot more bladed and with a longer stock, I occasionally would mount the gun slightly off and wonder why all my impacts were off. Nose-to-charging handle makes it easier to get the proper view down the scope in a hurry.

It's also easier to deal with a short stock when trying to get the same view from all the awkward positions we 3-gunners have to deal with. Sometimes, I'm shooting where my nose is on the charging handle and the stock isn't even touching me at all, but I'm still making my hits. Other times, I'm taking shots where only a short stock would allow the proper view down the scope, and the guys running an A2 would have to contort themselves around their long stocks.

Short stocks do suffer in prone, though. I could shoot a lot better if I popped my stock in and out to match the stage, but to run featureless California-legal rifles, you have to pin your collapsible stock to a fixed position.

[dohboy]

For the last 15 years or so gear has started to dictate how the Military and L.E. shoot, not the other way around. In my opinion...NOTE: ONLY MY OPINION...it hasn't done anything good for actually hitting anything, or contoling recoil...even from a fairly mild recoiling system like the M-4. Gun on pec is only good for standing toe to toe, face to face with your target and letting your armor take hits if necessary. The minute it becomes dynamic, or the target is off of your "center" the rear of the firearm is now in a fairly unsupported area, so we are now kind of "area shooting" which is all well and good if we are close....CQB! but the ranges are starting to extend and we are finding that we aren't getting the hits we did when we were close. Being comfortable and supporting the back of the rifle offers a much better hit probability than being "robo-cop" and I can't see much difference in plate exposure if we take just a half step forward where the ball of your strong side foot is even with the heal of your support side foot. Now we are in a good support position we are comfortable we can shoulder the rifle propperly and we are much more mobile. Robby, Kelly and I shoot almost identically, except I stand up much straighter while Kelly and Robby like to hunch over in a C....Might be the lower back fussion or that I am a bit more lazy, but the actual holding of the rifle and "bladed" stance is the same. Daniel does the same thing, but his right arm drops more instead of "chicken winging out" so it looks more "square" but if you watch it is about the same. KurtM

I'm a confused newbie rifle/3-gun shooter, did a search and found this thread. Wow, a lot of great info! Staying square vs bladed stance is something I've been struggling with. In my first couple of matches, I used the square stance-gun on pec method and it was very uncomfortable and fatiguing (I'm right handed and my left bicep was killing me after each stage)!

I am going to try the bladed stance-shoulder pocket method, but here is where I get confused: If using a bladed stance, can you still use the "nose on the charging handle" method or is that only for shooting squared up to the target? Since I am using an AR with a collapsible stock, would it be normal to collapse the stock when shooting squared up, nose to charging handle, but extend the stock if shooting bladed? I borrowed a friend's RRA with an ARFX stock and there was no way I could shoot bladed/NTCH without stretching my neck forward (for that matter, I could barely shoot NTCH with a square stance). Needless to say that was not comfortable.

I am currently shooting a 16" with irons, but will be alternating with an Aimpoint Comp M4. Not sure if using a 1X optic would change anyting since eye relief is not as a big concern as it is with a scope. Looking forward to hearing from you stud 3-gunning rifle shooting BE'ers.

[StealthyBlagga]

Not being of the ATAS persuasion, I shoot from a somewhat bladed stance whether static or moving. I am 5'11" tall and 210lbs, and I find my UBR or CTR work well one notch down from max length in most standing/kneeling situations. However, when I am shooting from prone, I like to pull the stock out an extra click to maximum length. I typically adopt an aggressive head position... my nose usually finds the charging handle. I run an Aimpoint red dot optic in Tactical Limited division, so eye relief is not an issue for me.

[dohboy]

So during a match would one have time to adjust the stock going from one position to another (i.e. standing to prone or vice versa) or do you just leave it at one length and deal with it?

[ken hebert]

its your time/score. stand there and adjust away. especially if you're in my division.

BTW, i shoot fixed A2 length stocks. prone, standing, kneeling, support shoulder, sideways through Vtac barriers... dont matter.

[StealthyBlagga]

So during a match would one have time to adjust the stock going from one position to another (i.e. standing to prone or vice versa) or do you just leave it at one length and deal with it?

Normally not, but I have done it when it makes sense. Example: fast hoser targets with movement followed by a short run to a prone shooting position for a significant number of targets to finish. In this case I would consider starting with the shorter stock setting and pull the stock out to max length while moving to the prone position (assuming it does not cost me any time). Adjusting short-to-long on the fly is easy with most M4-style stocks. Forget adjusting long-to-short though... disaster factor is too high.

[dohboy]

So during a match would one have time to adjust the stock going from one position to another (i.e. standing to prone or vice versa) or do you just leave it at one length and deal with it?

Normally not, but I have done it when it makes sense. Example: fast hoser targets with movement followed by a short run to a prone shooting position for a significant number of targets to finish. In this case I would consider starting with the shorter stock setting and pull the stock out to max length while moving to the prone position (assuming it does not cost me any time). Adjusting short-to-long on the fly is easy with most M4-style stocks. Forget adjusting long-to-short though... disaster factor is too high.

If you had your stock set short and didn't have time to extend it before going prone, how do you adapt to shooting prone with a shorter stock? Would shooting prone with a shorter stock throw off your length of pull / cheek weld?

[Les Snyder]

a Viet Nam era A1 stock with the rounded butt pad makes a good compromise for us game players that don't wear a plate carrier

[StealthyBlagga]

So during a match would one have time to adjust the stock going from one position to another (i.e. standing to prone or vice versa) or do you just leave it at one length and deal with it?

Normally not, but I have done it when it makes sense. Example: fast hoser targets with movement followed by a short run to a prone shooting position for a significant number of targets to finish. In this case I would consider starting with the shorter stock setting and pull the stock out to max length while moving to the prone position (assuming it does not cost me any time). Adjusting short-to-long on the fly is easy with most M4-style stocks. Forget adjusting long-to-short though... disaster factor is too high.

If you had your stock set short and didn't have time to extend it before going prone, how do you adapt to shooting prone with a shorter stock? Would shooting prone with a shorter stock throw off your length of pull / cheek weld?

I only switch between "maximum length" for prone and "maximum length -1 notch" for everything else. The difference in length is not so great that I can't adapt if there is not time to make the change... I make do. The adjustable length stock just gives me the option of a little more comfort when adjustment is not detrimental to the flow of the stage.

[madmax52]

I shoot my M4 with the stock on the 2nd position from the bottom. I have short arms and adding body armor to that equation puts me quite a ways from my sights so I have to collapse it down. It really made a difference for me when I got to switch from the M16A2 to the M4.

[Dwain C. Baer]

Kurt shoots from the shoulder pocket. Daniel (AMU product) shoots from closer to his sternum, and more square... shorter stock.

Interesting video...thanks for posting

[Remington4Life]

great info, I have been having this battle in my head. Its good to hear others have the same concerns and get chance to gather more knowledge.