Custom Limited 2011

[sperman]

Plus the overhad. A mill, lathe, surface grinder, tig welder, tools, keeping the lights on, shop space, etc. If you could build a gun and sell it for pure profit there would be a lot more gunsmiths out there.

[Corey]

I guess forgetting the face made a difference. I can totally see why there is a substantial wait/cost involved with a custom gun. hell i want to bill myself for doing simple gunsmith work like fitting a beavertail or something. I can't imagine building an entire gun from scratch. and it would take me a LOT longer to get it done, haha.

[G-ManBart]

I hate to say this but at $5k+ a pop, they are making more than a living. I won't mention any names, but a gunsmith I know can make a gun in 10-12 hours, and it have all the bells and whistles and be very nice gun.

I guess what you're seeing is the difference in the amount of time spent. One of the big name guys told me that he spent over (emphasis on over) twice that amount of time....I'm not going to say the exact number of hours.

Knowing a couple of these guys on a personal level, I can say none of them are getting rich, and they're all working for less than the hourly rate they'd be paid if they were doing the same level of work in other areas. One of the told me a joke at the High Desert Classic: "Hey, you know what the difference is between an awesome gunsmith, and a large pizza is? A large pizza can feed a family of four".

For the OP, and everyone else, think through this seriously. It's like when the boss at work suggests that everyone could easily add one or two tasks per day to their routine...right.....nobody knows all of what you do, and most of us don't think about all of what the top gunsmiths are doing.

Even at 10-12 hours per gun, that still works out to two days in the real world. Factor in time spent on the phone, answering e-mails, etc, etc, and they're probably lucky if they get to spend 5-6 hours a day at the bench. Even if they work six days a week, that means they're only cranking out 10-12 guns per month. Oh wait, they also probably have to test fire the guns they build, so add the time for that into each week...worse if they don't have a range on site. Oh, and we expect to see them at some big matches, so take away some time for that...say a week or two at Nationals, a couple of majors a year for another couple of weeks. Let's not forget the guy that shows up/calls up, with an emergency because his gun broke right before his biggest match of the year, and needs it fixed right now...

Then think about someone like Bob L. who takes time to write articles for Front Sight, and nice FAQ articles he puts on his website so you learn how to do some of the things he could CHARGE you for, by yourself. Yeah, and I don't own a Brazos gun, so it's not like I'm pimping for him. All of the top guys spend time doing things other than cutting steel.

And people wonder why these guys have a backlog of work that runs several months???

Edited December 2, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Sean Gaines]

I hate to say this but at $5k+ a pop, they are making more than a living. I won't mention any names, but a gunsmith I know can make a gun in 10-12 hours, and it have all the bells and whistles and be very nice gun.

I guess what you're seeing is the difference in the amount of time spent. One of the big name guys told me that he spent over (emphasis on over) twice that amount of time....I'm not going to say the exact number of hours.

Knowing a couple of these guys on a personal level, I can say none of them are getting rich, and they're all working for less than the hourly rate they'd be paid if they were doing the same level of work in other areas. One of the told me a joke at the High Desert Classic: "Hey, you know what the difference is between an awesome gunsmith, and a large pizza is? A large pizza can feed a family of four".

For the OP, and everyone else, think through this seriously. It's like when the boss at work suggests that everyone could easily add one or two tasks per day to their routine...right.....nobody knows all of what you do, and most of us don't think about all of what the top gunsmiths are doing.

Even at 10-12 hours per gun, that still works out to two days in the real world. Factor in time spent on the phone, answering e-mails, etc, etc, and they're probably lucky if they get to spend 5-6 hours a day at the bench. Even if they work six days a week, that means they're only cranking out 10-12 guns per month. Oh wait, they also probably have to test fire the guns they build, so add the time for that into each week...worse if they don't have a range on site. Oh, and we expect to see them at some big matches, so take away some time for that...say a week or two at Nationals, a couple of majors a year for another couple of weeks. Let's not forget the guy that shows up/calls up, with an emergency because his gun broke right before his biggest match of the year, and needs it fixed right now...

Then think about someone like Bob L. who takes time to write articles for Front Sight, and nice FAQ articles he puts on his website so you learn how to do some of the things he could CHARGE you for, by yourself. Yeah, and I don't own a Brazos gun, so it's not like I'm pimping for him. All of the top guys spend time doing things other than cutting steel.

And people wonder why these guys have a backlog of work that runs several months???

I hear what you are saying gman, but I can tell you for a fact that there are gunsmiths at Briley that make $150k+ a year! So I am not arguing with you. Yes there is overhead, and there is marketing of your product etc, etc,, but at the same time, there are some gunsmiths that don't need to market their product, its just known. but even at 10-12 guns a month at the rate some of these gunsmiths charge, do the math, lets say they are selling a gun for $5k, lets say they make $2k per gun, thats $20k per month, lets say they make $1k per gun, thats $10k per month, thats not too bad. At that rate, It doesn't take much to pay for their equipment, once that is paid off, it just means more money for them.

I understand that 10-12 guns a month may not be all the time or even realistic, especially in the economic environment that we are in. Even if they averaged 5 gun builds per month at $1k per gun profit, thats well above the National average individual income. So as far as getting rich, you will not! can you make a living? yes

[Wild Gene]

Bart,

Great post. Yes, there is much more to running a business than simply putting out a product. A big part is also service after the sale, and, in my opinion, repair for existing customers should come before shipping new guns. There are a lot of costs in shipping out a product, and a lot of time invested.

I have to admit, I have contacted my gunsmith one time since my original order. It is not a secretary that answers the phone, it is him, and for every second he is on the phone with me, he is probably loosing two on shop time.

I will wait. I am certain I will be happy I waited. I am happy I chose the builder I did.

This is not a "trash the smith" thread. It is to help me and others know what to expect when ordering a custom built 2011.

Thank you.

G

[Wild Gene]

I don't begrudge anyone for making a living, or an honest profit. If they can't, they're not going to be in business too long.

G

[Seth]

I've run 3 small businesses. The joke is always the same... if the customer would stop calling me, emailing me, dropping by, I could actually get some work done!

This is still America. If JoJo can charge $8k for an open gun and there's enough guys willing to pay it, then more power to him. Is it worth it? Perhaps, but not to me.

Hell, I just spent 6 hours making target stands....

[818-DVC]

I imagine those who expedite guns for cash up front do it to stay in business, or fund new tooling or overhead. I don't think it's wrong to do it either. I heard stories about a particular well known pistolsmith who has a year wait & charges $5k a gun that he sells well over 20 guns a month and most the work is done at STI now. Someone saw this builders frames & slides being churned out In bulk like Any other STI gun.. That seems wrong to me. If your workload is so high that you can't build your own guns anymore, Stop taking orders!

[Pezco]

I've had 2 SV and 1 Bedell built and all took less then 9 months and all were well worth the wait. I do strongly recommend buying a gun from someone who has been building them for a while. Just because someone is popular or knows how to shoot doesn't make them a qualified (read trained) gunsmith.

[Sarge]

PEZCO lives!!

I talked to a builder who said he could build mine in a good solid day or two..

But he can't start for four months!

[Wild Gene]

I've had 2 SV and 1 Bedell built and all took less then 9 months and all were well worth the wait. I do strongly recommend buying a gun from someone who has been building them for a while. Just because someone is popular or knows how to shoot doesn't make them a qualified (read trained) gunsmith.

+1

WG

[DWFAN]

To quote a 'smith...

Good, fast, cheap. Pick TWO.

[RIIID]

Where to start?

Not all gunsmith shops operate under the same business model, here's a few- one man shop, an owner with employee's/apprentices, a shop that makes parts along with gunsmithing, a shop with an internet store, a retail store, refinishing, works on a single platform (like 1911's only), multiple platforms, different types of guns(rifles and shotguns), builds only new guns, works on everything down to the local bb gun owners pile of junk, just carry guns, big game rifles, or just works of art for the collector........................

Then there are the hobbiest, part timers, full time after the day job, full time 60+ hours a week.

Then there's the shop that has someone answer the phone, let the machine pick up all calls, e-mail only, who does the web-site/internet store updates themselves or hires it out, does their own book work/taxes and payroll.

According to ATF are they just a retailer/gunsmith or are they a manufacturer(more book work and 10% FET tax).

All of these things effect price and wait time so comparing one gunsmith to the other is just apples and oranges because there probably isn't two shops running things identical.

As to wait time there are lots of variables one shop who stocks a full inventory of parts or one who relies on vendors/distributors or the client to have the parts all the time(on a personal note I've been waiting for three months for 4 sets of sights).

Then there is style, reliability, service, resale, name recognition, communication, personality,........

There is alot more, I just scratched the surface. Do your homework fire a few rounds and take that big step, odds are you will never settle for a production line gun again after owning a true custom build.

Rich

[jjanglin]

Then more time when UPS looses your custom parts or it snows up to your butt and you have to blow the snow out of the

drive to keep the wife off your back,My wife causes me quite a bit of lost shoptime.

I do most everything on a manual mill and by hand no way I can build 10 guns a month.

Just a lot more to it than most folks can even imagine.

Chromer gets backed up , this doesnt happen often but it does happen.

If I didnt have a good retirement I sure as heck couldnt make a living at building guns.

Jim/Pa

Sailors

[lumpygravy]

I see a recurring theme here: the good 'smiths have a lead time with many factors affecting the delivery of an ordered gun.

Sounds a lot like a good general contractor.

My guy is always busy and has a 3-4 month lead time to get me on his schedule. He has to deal with building inspectors, getting the supplies/materials, managing his crew, etc... He works a 6 day week and the better part of 12 hour days.

I enjoy a certain amount of woodcraft, tinkering, home improvement and I do it out of both enjoyment and necessity. However, you could not pay me to do it for a living. I'd have a major problem meeting customer expectations.

[MQW]

If you time it right and you know someone that has an in, with say Millennium Custom, Derek can get a new gun done in 8-12 weeks max. sometimes sooner if you provide parts; might try Matt Burkett's new custom gun operation, Predator Tactical, I think he can get guns out fairly quickly; Tell him Mark Quinn told you to call, we have known each other for a long time and that might get you some consideration.

[MQW]

Bedell Custom is also a great operation, but it you want it fast, go thru Velocity Shooters and Tony Pignato, Tony P. can probably get it done for you in a reasonable amount of time.

[Wild Gene]

Bedell Custom is also a great operation, but it you want it fast, go thru Velocity Shooters and Tony Pignato, Tony P. can probably get it done for you in a reasonable amount of time.

Thanks for both replies.

You mentioned "reasonable" amount of time above. There's the rub! Agreeing what reasonable is. I think it is most important that you are aware before you make an order what that time will be, and that you are willing to wait for the quality you expect from a given builder. I would also say, I have a few "ins" but am reluctant to call them in. They may need to use them for their own emergencies.

Thank you again!

WG