Parts Rifle

[DocMcG]

Shot a match today and watched a good friend's daughter shoot her first 3Gun. As a father of two young ladies I can tell you that I was very impressed and can't wait to see my girls in action in their first shooting sports competition. On my way home from the match all I could think about was putting together a rifle for my oldest daughter because of all of the parts I have laying around from prize tables, but I now have questions.

So, I am on a mission to build a super light AR over the next two years or so, but I need your input. Here are some questions:

1. What are your experiences from a rifle build for a child? (FYI - She will be 9 soon.)

2. It would be neat to put a 14.5" barrel on this rifle. Are there restrictions?

3. I have lots of parts, but what should I make sure to use to keep things super light weight.

Thanks in advance for your tips and advice!

Cheers,

Kyle

[Flatland Shooter]

Over on AR15.com in the AR builders section, Josh Ashton posted info on a rifle he built that, when finished, weighed 4 lb 1 oz.

By far the lightest I've heard of but it took a bit of work to get there. He used a Cav Arms lower, 11.5" bbl and fiberglass FF handguard. To keep it from requiring reqistration as an SBR, you would need to permanently add a 5" flash hider.

To make it simple, go to one of the kit companies and get a 16" mid-length with a light weight barrel. Build it with the M4 (adjustable) buttstock so it can easily be fitted to her. Should come in under 6-1/2 lbs without a lot of modification.

Have her shoot this one, see how it goes and go from there.

Bill

Edited November 28, 2010 by Flatland Shooter

[boomfab]

Do NOT put a 14.5" barrel on it unless you are using a NFA registered short-barreled rifle lower receiver. It's a felony.

[DocMcG]

Do NOT put a 14.5" barrel on it unless you are using a NFA registered short-barreled rifle lower receiver. It's a felony.

Thanks! Thought there was some sort of restriction, but I was not certain.

Cheers,

Kyle

[caspian guy]

If you already have the 14.5 barrel you could have a comp permanently attached to get the barrel length greater than 16".

[EkuJustice]

You could always pay the 200 dollar tax stamp and have it done as a short barrel rifle. Built one here with a 10.5 inch light weight barrel and it is light. If you want to aviod the tax stamp, you can get a regular 14.5 inch barrel, have a comp perminenty attached and have adco turn it down very thin which will loose alot of weight.

Another option is to get one of the Smith and wesson 22 caliber ar15 rifles. Very Light, cheap to shoot and a good training rifle without the recoil and noise of a 223

[Braxton1]

My gun weighs 6 lb., 7 oz. with an EOTech 517 optic installed. It has:

Standard lower

DPMS Lo-Pro upper (It's thicker than necessary. Could've dropped an ounce or three using a standard flat-top upper from one of the other mfrs.)

JP Fire Control System

20" barrel (Started as an HBAR barrel, but everything under the handguard was lathed away...)

Surefire Compensator

Clark Carbon Fiber forend/Magpul MOE pistol grip

ACE ARFX Stock.

JP Low-Mass Bolt Carrier and Buffer

The only thing that I don't like about it is that it is a bit front-heavy. My next one will probably be on a 16-inch barrel and will probably be a few ounces lighter.

Edited November 28, 2010 by Braxton1

[MILDOTS]

I have a Professional Ordnance carbon fiber ar-15. It has a 16" fluted barrel. Loaded with a 20 round mag it runs 5.29 pounds. When I bought it I thought it would be a great for 3-gun. It was hard to shoot accurately at distance and the thin barrel heated up and strung the bullets vertically after about 25 rounds. I never used it in competition for those reasons. But for a 9 or 10 year old a gun like that might be the ticket. Most local matches do not have long range stages anyway.

[GorillaTactical]

Doc, throw one of those carbon fiber handguards on it...those make the rifle so much lighter than any railed handguard...

Then, assuming she would be OK shooting irons at first...I'd say keep the scope off the rifle...just taking my scope off of my rifle makes it feel sooo much lighter when I have it in shouldered.

I don't think a 14.5 makes that much difference than a 16" in felt weight. You could also use one of the Skeletonized stocks to cut down further on weight.

[mpeltier]

I recently put together an AR15 for my 13 yr old son to shoot rifle competition with. He is not a real big kid, so weight was a consideration, but not as much as balance. Having the gun balanced with the weight more to the rear (butstock) can go far to making the gun feel lighter and still soak up some recoil. Trust me a kid that age will feel a little recoil as they are learning to properly shoot. What I built for him was not cheap, but it was worth it as he handles it very well. He placed 24 out of 50 at our last Rifle match (only his 3rd match).

I used a Sabre 18" midgas fluted bbl

PRI Mid-length target carbon fiber forearm

PRI comp

PRI adj gas block

JP LMoS bolt carrier

JP Triger package

Magpul UBR stock w/3.4oz buffer

Trijicon TR24 1-4 scope in a Larue mount

Whole thing weighs about 8lbs but feels lighter because the UBR stock is a bit heavier than a traditional adjustable stock, and puts some weight behind the shooting hand for better balance. For a kids shorter arm length you definately want an adjustable stock. It is also a good enough rifle to grow with him for years to come.

For teaching, don't overlook the utility of an air rifle. This is what I did. A .22 is nice, but most people still need to go to the range for that. An air rifle allows a lot of teaching time at home. Safety, fundamentals, then gamesmanship can all be taught (in that order) at home with an inexpensive air gun.

[bob tx]

AT our local multigun match in Houston, we have a young man who utilizes an M&p 15 22 and a sig Mosquito (22) to shoot the match. We do not let him shoot past 100 yds though (range safety)

Seems to work as a starter set-up

Bob

[DocMcG]

My gun weighs 6 lb., 7 oz. with an EOTech 517 optic installed.

Wow! That's light! Is that loaded with a 30 round mag?

Then, assuming she would be OK shooting irons at first...

I have a Burris FastFire II I was going to slap on it. That should be an easy site picture and very light for her.

For teaching, don't overlook the utility of an air rifle. This is what I did. A .22 is nice, but most people still need to go to the range for that. An air rifle allows a lot of teaching time at home. Safety, fundamentals, then gamesmanship can all be taught (in that order) at home with an inexpensive air gun.

Great point! She loves her air rifles and is good with the irons on them. I just wish triggers were a bit better in them.

AT our local multigun match in Houston, we have a young man who utilizes an M&p 15 22 and a sig Mosquito (22) to shoot the match. We do not let him shoot past 100 yds though (range safety)

Bob, we were talking about this concept at Copperas Cove this weekend! I wonder how many would shoot the match with straight 22lr if it were an option or even a separate division for juniors.

Thanks to everyone for your advice and help! Great information, keep it coming!

Cheers,

Kyle

[Braxton1]

My gun weighs 6 lb., 7 oz. with an EOTech 517 optic installed.

Wow! That's light! Is that loaded with a 30 round mag?

I wish!!!

Naw, that's empty. I would like to get it that light with its 20-inch barrel and loaded. I am considering going to a 16, just to get some more weight out of it and make the comp work a little harder. That may be an off-season experiment.

[bob tx]

I have had 3-4 requests from regular match participants to utilize 22 ARs. Our problem is when we start to shoot over 100 yds, all of these people have no idea what their holdover would be and with the range layout, this is a big safety issue.

Bob

[JeffWard]

Model 1 Sales sells a number of lightweight 11.5" barrels with permanent 5.5" flash-hiders. DPMS has them on sale NOW for $127!!!

Carbon Fiber Free-float-guard from DPMS.

Standard AR grip for small hands.

Simple collapsible stock for short reach.

That would be a light combo!

Jeff

[DocMcG]

Reviving this thread!

I am still working on my daughter's "super light" rifle. I am looking at getting a pencil barrel (20") and cut it down to 17". Has anyone else done this? from what I read you can't cut it down any shorter than that to keep the rifle length gas system happy.

Also, what are your favorite carbon fiber hand guards? Is anyone using anything other than carbon fiber that is super light weight?

Kyle

[caspian guy]

You might consider something like this one... it is a mid-length gas, 16", 1in7, pencil barrel...

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Barrel-Stripped-LIGHT-WEIGHT-p/bcm-brl-mid-16lw%20std.htm

For the carbon float tube I like the clark.

[MarkCO]

I am looking at getting a pencil barrel (20") and cut it down to 17". Has anyone else done this? from what I read you can't cut it down any shorter than that to keep the rifle length gas system happy.

Also, what are your favorite carbon fiber hand guards? Is anyone using anything other than carbon fiber that is super light weight?

Kyle, I built (and modified a lot) a superlight AR with a pencil barrel that I eventually got down to 4.6 pounds. It had a Cav Arms lower, which is A1 length, so shorter than a typical A2 stock. I used the DPMS stripped upper that had no dustcover and no FA ($80 at MidwayUSA). Then I milled some of the rail away that I was not going to use. I put a 2 ounce red dot on it for sights and drilled out a bunch of the aluminum handguard. JP LMOS carrier, milled bolt, carbine buffer (required in the Cav Arms lowers), no muzzle treatment. That was my 3rd AR I built, and I have learned a lot since. What I essentially built was comparable, in terms of accuracy, weight and recoil, to a Kel-Tec SU16. They weigh 4.5 pounds and cost 1/3 what I spent on that AR. I've shot both in matches, and they can do about 3 MOA.

IF the Cav Arms fits her, it saves a lot of weight and they are pretty good. They can be had for $100 or so, but Cav Arms no longer makes them and I have not seen anyone pick the lowers up to produce. To get a really good trigger, almost have to go with a modular trigger. The DPMS upper I used was a good choice (with no DC and no FA saves a few ounces). Honestly, I'd go with an 18" medium contour barrel. The Sabre barrel that Mark mentioned is light, solid and very accurate and is what I would recomend for the weight savings. I've tried 17s, and I made it work, but it took some time to get the recoil impulse as good as the 18s. A low profile adjustable steel gas block saves a tad and allows some adjustment. For the Carbon Fiber handguards, yes that does save weight and is the best bet. Give Jim or Nanci at Firebird a call, I hear they have a good one that will be available shortly.

[AlamoShooter]

I have a new Sabre Defence "Light Saber" that has the Cav arms lower and a 16" Piston upper. its new unfired the handguard is plain plastic Flat top

Its for sale

[MarkCO]

I have a new Sabre Defence "Light Saber" that has the Cav arms lower and a 16" Piston upper. its new unfired the handguard is plain plastic Flat top

Its for sale

Nice. Looks like they weigh 6 pounds.

Edited December 31, 2010 by MarkCO

[TXMXRACER]

Hey Kyle--email me about a carbon handguard. I might be able to fix you up.

shane

[DocMcG]

You might consider something like this one... it is a mid-length gas, 16", 1in7, pencil barrel...

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Barrel-Stripped-LIGHT-WEIGHT-p/bcm-brl-mid-16lw%20std.htm

I am looking at getting a pencil barrel (20") and cut it down to 17". Has anyone else done this? from what I read you can't cut it down any shorter than that to keep the rifle length gas system happy.

Also, what are your favorite carbon fiber hand guards? Is anyone using anything other than carbon fiber that is super light weight?

Honestly, I'd go with an 18" medium contour barrel. The Sabre barrel that Mark mentioned is light, solid and very accurate and is what I would recomend for the weight savings. I've tried 17s, and I made it work, but it took some time to get the recoil impulse as good as the 18s. A low profile adjustable steel gas block saves a tad and allows some adjustment.

Hey guys, thanks for the information. I had read that the rifle length gas system would allow the most flexibility. My plan was to drop in the JP system (brake, adjustable gas block, reduced mass carrier and buffer) to reduce recoil. Does the mid-length gas system work JP's components?

This was the whole reason I was going after the 20" barrel was b/c of weight and length of gas system.

Kyle

[JaeOne3345]

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39599

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=57085

Edited December 31, 2010 by JaeOne3345

[mpeltier]

Does the mid-length gas system work JP's components?

This was the whole reason I was going after the 20" barrel was b/c of weight and length of gas system.

Kyle

There is a slight differance in the recoil impulse between a mid gas and rifle gas system all else bieng equal. Your Junior would not notice the differance. The jp LMOS system works just fine with mid gas.

Of the carbon fiber forearms out there I like the PRI target model the best.

For comps I like the Miculek, PRI and JP. In that order (mostly due to cost) Most others I feel only add weight to the end of the bbl. and do not really work any better.

[caspian guy]

My two primary 3 gun rifles are both mid lengths (18" fluted Sabre and 16" Noveske) they both use a JP low mass carrier, and a lightened buffer. Never had any issues out of either of them.