Concealed carry matches

[Chris iliff]

First, I have never been to a concealed carry match. I have heard talk of them and they sound fun! What I've heard is they are very basic. Five to six shots max, no reloads, fairly close target presentations.

I was thinking that these types of matches would benefit USPSA by introducing shooters to something fun and easy to manage even for first timers.

So, I know these matches exist. Shouldn't USPSA try to umbrella these and get them standardized? I could even see, at some point, special concealed carry classifiers to shoot during a match.

These would be separate matches, I DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE USPSA! It didn't change with the addition of Steel Challenge, this is just another subset.

I'm just thinking out loud here,.... what do you guys think?

Edited October 21, 2010 by fourtrax

[sperman]

I think there is a sport already dedicated to something similar. USPSA isn't about wearing vests or low round count stages.

Just my opinion.

[The_Vigilante]

Join IDPA if this is what you are interested in doing!

[Chris iliff]

I seem to remember reading or hearing that USPSA wanted to be the UMBRELLA organization for shooting sports in the United States. I was thinking, much like what is going on with Schoolastic Steel Challenge, that USPSA might consider this as another alternative to gather more shooters, but older. This would be basic, basic, basic. Fun, fun, fun, for the never competed crowd (you know they outnumber us competitors) by huge amounts. The guys that carry outnumber us also, don't you think? You want them "in" or "out"? I'm looking for a way to get them "in" my sport and spark curiosity.

I need some serious analysis here, I'm interested in building up USPSA, not tearing down or starting squabbles.

I have never shot IDPA, but hear that it can be fun. Is it concealed, 5-6 shot scenarios?

[MichiganShootist]

Check out IDPA.com. There's lot's of information there.

I love IDPA and USPSA.. they are both great shooting sports... but I don't see them "merging" or anything like that in the next 100 years.

There are many Indy clubs at which you could sample "the other" shooting sport.

Good luck and feel free to PM me if you want any further insight... this forum is VERY careful not to allow any controversy between the two "games... Which I believe is a good stance.

[Chris iliff]

I think there is a sport already dedicated to something similar. USPSA isn't about wearing vests or low round count stages.

Just my opinion.

I can't think of anything more PRACTICAL than what I'm suggesting in order to gain and grow USPSA. If there is already a sport/society then they are not doing a very good job getting the word out. Don't some clubs run these events using our rules already? Why not try to hook those guys?

[ima45dv8]

From your opening post it's unclear to me whether you are suggesting USPSA adopt a separate program to provide CCW-type matches, or whether USPSA matches should be altered to a CCW-type format. I suspect you meant the first one. Please clarify that now before the loyal USPSA villagers storm your castle with pitchforks and torches for trying to alter the format.

I have nothing against matches of that format. I know where to find them and will go there if I want that sort of challenge. But it isn't what I expect to find at USPSA matches.

[Chris iliff]

Check out IDPA.com. There's lot's of information there.

I love IDPA and USPSA.. they are both great shooting sports... but I don't see them "merging" or anything like that in the next 100 years.

There are many Indy clubs at which you could sample "the other" shooting sport.

Good luck and feel free to PM me if you want any further insight... this forum is VERY careful not to allow any controversy between the two "games... Which I believe is a good stance.

Been around the Forum for awhile and understand what you are saying. If what I'm suggesting is so close to IDPA as to duplicate that sport, then by all means I'm definitely barking up the wrong tree.

But, I don't think I'm close to that, even remotely. Sometimes I don't think I make myself clear when writing, by the responses I get.

Please read original post. I make no mention of IDPA or MERGE. I'm talking about a whole bunch of people that are not competing and could be brought in to USPSA with some simple word of mouth/advertising by a local club.

[Chris iliff]

From your opening post it's unclear to me whether you are suggesting USPSA adopt a separate program to provide CCW-type matches, or whether USPSA matches should be altered to a CCW-type format. I suspect you meant the first one. Please clarify that now before the loyal USPSA villagers storm your castle with pitchforks and torches for trying to alter the format.

I have nothing against matches of that format. I know where to find them and will go there if I want that sort of challenge. But it isn't what I expect to find at USPSA matches.

That's funny I'm saying, Adopt a separate program to provide CCW-type matches. I don't want pitch forked.

We've bought Steel Challenge, why not create another, far, far, easier sub set to gain even more shooters.

Wouldn't it be nice if you went to those matches and knew that you were supporting USPSA. I have a ton of friends that just don't have the money/time to compete like I do. I would love to be able to say..."Hey, I'm going to "insert club name here" for a USPSA CCW match. You still carry? Come with me and shoot. No special equipment needed, you already have it on you!

Edited October 21, 2010 by fourtrax

[MichiganShootist]

I suggest that this thread be closed.

It is going to be trouble ... and I believe the OP knew that.

[ima45dv8]

From your opening post it's unclear to me whether you are suggesting USPSA adopt a separate program to provide CCW-type matches, or whether USPSA matches should be altered to a CCW-type format. I suspect you meant the first one. Please clarify that now before the loyal USPSA villagers storm your castle with pitchforks and torches for trying to alter the format.

I have nothing against matches of that format. I know where to find them and will go there if I want that sort of challenge. But it isn't what I expect to find at USPSA matches.

That's funny I'm saying, Adopt a separate program to provide CCW-type matches. I don't want pitch forked.

We've bought Steel Challenge, why not create another, far, far, easier sub set to gain even more shooters.

I would support that entirely, if the membership hadn't been deliberately excluded, by vote of the BoD, from ever knowing what we paid for the Steel Challenge.

[sperman]

I think a better way to try and get new shooters would be something similar to the GSSF format. Eliminate the draw, movement and reload, but give them a taste of competitive shooting. I know this doesn't tie into the CCW crowd, but it would be much safer for new shooters than drawing from a concelaed holster.

[Chris iliff]

I think a better way to try and get new shooters would be something similar to the GSSF format. Eliminate the draw, movement and reload, but give them a taste of competitive shooting. I know this doesn't tie into the CCW crowd, but it would be much safer for new shooters than drawing from a concelaed holster.

Now that is interesting and some good info. I'm not familiar with GSSF, but what you describe is what I'm driving at. Something simple, under the USPSA umbrella. I started with CCW type matches as an example because that was the easiest type of shooting event I have ever heard described.

[Chris iliff]

I suggest that this thread be closed.

It is going to be trouble ... and I believe the OP knew that.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Sorry you feel that way. I'm always looking for ways to draw in more shooters to USPSA.

[Bob DuBois]

I am one of the few that enjoy both IDPA and IPSC, both are fun but different. Want to shoot a carry match, find the IDPA club in your area. We'll even do a bug gun match once in a while and a carry match on indoor IDPA Tuesday nights every so often.

We did a cross over match one weekend with three IDPA stages and three IPSC stages. Both groups had a good time and many suggested we do it again but picked up very few that want to switch games or cross over.

Enjoy IPSC for what it is, a good quicker game. Enjoy IDPA for what it is and shoot your carry pistol and gear there.

[Chris iliff]

So, what seems to be the running thread against the idea is that IDPA already does what I'm describing? I'm really interested in figuring out how to drive USPSA numbers UP. Something fairly simple and easy to do, that a guy/girl can come out and try under the USPSA banner. That USPSA would receive some money from to help grow our sport. Is this so wrong?

[Flexmoney]

Chris, I see your good intentions here. I know you aren't trying to change USPSA or merge it with IDPA or anything like that. You are just wondering about getting more of the newer and/or the "practical" shooters onto the range.

IDPA sometimes does what you are describing. But, not in a general way. They will sometimes run a BUG (Back Up Gun) match or stage. Which may be 5 rounds or less.

I've got a buddy (10 top Revoler shooter) that has been playing some IDPA with his J-frame. That is not the format for that gun. He presses on with it, for the trigger time.

What comes closer to meeting the criteria you mentioned is Steel Challenge. It is 5 shots or less, no reload required. The targets aren't 8y and in, however.

Steel Challenge could be very...challenging...with a carry gun.

But, it is a GREAT place for shooters to start out. (and still tough at the highest skill levels) You can shoot it with revolers, .22 rimfire, there is little to no movement, no required reloads on the clock, targets give feedback, etc....etc...

Clubs really ought to be running Steel Challenge. It is even quick and easy to setup and tear down. Heck, you really only need one berm and 5 poppers (set to not fall when hit).

[G-ManBart]

Clubs really ought to be running Steel Challenge. It is even quick and easy to setup and tear down. Heck, you really only need one berm and 5 poppers (set to not fall when hit).

+1

I wish that were a more popular idea. I think SC is also the perfect "off-season" match for those places that get cold/snow etc and stop their monthly matches from late Fall to mid Spring. You don't have to paste targets, you don't have to move, and you can leave .22 brass in the snow

[rvb]

fourtrax,

I think the biggest hurdle with these types of matches being adopted by either uspsa or idpa rests in the safety and liability concern these national organizations share. It is hard to have a match open to "whatever" people use for carry, and then have a lot of restrictions on equipment, even if those restrictions are strictly based on safety. Would USPSA allow an organization under its umbrella to use cross-draw holsters? Shoulder holsters? Pocket holsters? No holsters? Would there be ammo requirements? A vast majority of carry guns on the streets would never make power factor (.380s, .32s, 38 spl, etc). In very short order, with just those considerations, you've created an "ipsc-lite" or "idpa-lite" that will force people to get new equipment just to compete in a game, and we're right back where we started. These defensive "outlaw" matches are much more suited to giving someone using that type of gear a place to shoot.

just a thought...

-rvb

ps. my "6 shot" 642 would never go over well at any match... "(1)Bang (2)Bang (3)Bang (4)Bang (5)Bang (6)THROW"

-rvb

Edited October 22, 2010 by rvb

[Chills1994]

Here in the St. Louis area, at least the Arnold Rifle and Pistol Club, it is highly recommended for the newbies to start out with our bastardized version of Steel Challenge that we call "speed plates" And like the G-man said, it is .22 friendly and with the winter months coming up, it's nice to just leave the .22 brass in the snow.

For those guys who are die hard IDPA'ers or CCW'ers we don't hold it against them if they show up to a steel plate match or a regular USPSA match with their concealment vests or Hawaiian print shirts on.

Nothing in either rulebook says that they CAN'T draw from concealment.

[sfchorn]

fourtrax,

I think the biggest hurdle with these types of matches being adopted by either uspsa or idpa rests in the safety and liability concern these national organizations share. It is hard to have a match open to "whatever" people use for carry, and then have a lot of restrictions on equipment, even if those restrictions are strictly based on safety. Would USPSA allow an organization under its umbrella to use cross-draw holsters? Shoulder holsters? Pocket holsters? No holsters? Would there be ammo requirements? A vast majority of carry guns on the streets would never make power factor (.380s, .32s, 38 spl, etc). In very short order, with just those considerations, you've created an "ipsc-lite" or "idpa-lite" that will force people to get new equipment just to compete in a game, and we're right back where we started. These defensive "outlaw" matches are much more suited to giving someone using that type of gear a place to shoot.

just a thought...

-rvb

ps. my "6 shot" 642 would never go over well at any match... "(1)Bang (2)Bang (3)Bang (4)Bang (5)Bang (6)THROW"

-rvb

LMAO. My 642 Airweight would go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, throw, whiffle.........

[lrf]

In my mind, USPSA is a fun, peaceful sport. I'm just running around and target shooting, I don't tie uspsa stages into real life scenarios. I ccw and I believe in it, but I think of uspsa as a sport, just like playing a pickup game of basketball.

[mgood]

The first pistol match of any kind that I ever shot was a "concealed carry" match. It got me hooked.

The club where I started shoots USPSA on the first Saturday of the month and Concealed Carry on the 3rd Sunday. Many of the same people do both. The same people run both. But they are two entirely different animals.

I'm not sure USPSA could gain much, if anything, by absorbing these type of matches. And I'm pretty sure our local match would not benefit by being under the umbrella of USPSA.

Any structured competition will soon be dominated by "gamers." That would ruin our CC matches. I'm not sure how it's been avoided, but it has, at least where I shoot. It's a great place for new shooters to come out and get their feet wet. The gun stores in town recommend these matches to their customers, so there are always fresh faces.

It's simple and fun. It borrows from both USPSA and IDPA, but is neither. (I think it's probably closer to IDPA, but having never shot IDPA, I couldn't say that for certain.) The "rule book" is one page. No race guns, no race holsters, just real carry gear. Major and minor scoring similar to USPSA, but 9mm is minor while .40 and .45 are major. If you bring "gnat fart" low recoil loads, knowing that no one is going to be there with a chrono, you will be ridiculed. Divisions are single stack, double stack, and revolver. You must score 8 points on each target for it to be considered "neutralized."

For safety, they don't allow cross draws or shoulder holsters. You're pretty much restriced to a strong-side belt holster.

[larry cazes]

I think there is a sport already dedicated to something similar. USPSA isn't about wearing vests or low round count stages.

Just my opinion.

Yup. Gotta agree. High round counts, no concealment, and no tactical dogma or trappings is what got me coming to USPSA matches in the first place. Lots of IDPA clubs out there for what you are describing. Let this one die before it gets heated and gets closed by the mods. So much history already here on the forum on similar subjects.

[Jadeslade]

Not a good idea.

A really great concealed carry match would be to park at Grand Army Plaza in Brooklyn and walk to the Red Hook Housing Project. At midnight. Winner gets to go home.

Just kidding. Concealed carry is not a sport.