Holster falls off with gun in it after Make Ready - DQ?

[Skydiver]

After the "Make Ready" command, the competitor loads his gun, and then puts the gun into his holster. When he lets go of the gun, the entire holster falls off the belt, but safely remains locked in the holster.

Is this incident considered a dropped gun under 10.5.3?

(This question was inspired because the mailman brought me a new Double Alpha Race Master holster last week and while I was playing with it, I notice that it's design prevents the assembly that actually holds the gun from falling off the holster. This made me think of my CR Speed WSM II where there assembly that holds the gun can actually just slide off the end of the pole.)

[lcs]

After the "Make Ready" command, the competitor loads his gun, and then puts the gun into his holster. When he lets go of the gun, the entire holster falls off the belt, but safely remains locked in the holster.

Is this incident considered a dropped gun under 10.5.3?

(This question was inspired because the mailman brought me a new Double Alpha Race Master holster last week and while I was playing with it, I notice that it's design prevents the assembly that actually holds the gun from falling off the holster. This made me think of my CR Speed WSM II where there assembly that holds the gun can actually just slide off the end of the pole.)

DQ!

[JThompson]

Yup, trip to Dairy Queen...

JT

[vluc]

One of our local shooters, 2009 Nats. MR, loads and sight pictures, holsters gun, entire holster falls off and hits the ground.

Done.

[edwin garcia]

Wardrobe malfunction?

[outerlimits]

Yep-done. I've ro'd a guy that LAMR, then missed the holster...gun just missed hitting his foot but didn't go off. Scary!

[Corey]

Yep-done. I've ro'd a guy that LAMR, then missed the holster...gun just missed hitting his foot but didn't go off. Scary!

Missed the holster? I watch the muzzle enter the holster EVERY time I 'Make Ready' to make sure I dont drop it. I can see where a race holster would be a bit different but still

As for the holster falling off/breaking, that would be a bad way to get DQ'd. anyone with holsters other than belt loop style need to be checking this i suppose.

[Merlin Orr]

I watched the MD for the Ft Benning 3 Gun DQ himself when his entire belt, holster, mags and all came off and slid to his ankles during a door breach.... Don't think it ever touched the ground....

I understand this was not a USPSA match but just demonstrates that people take safety this type of situation seriously...

Edited October 18, 2010 by Merlin Orr

[Chris Keen]

Wardrobe malfunction?

Cilff Walsh comes to mind!

[Sarge]

I see that everybody says it is a DQ. I'm not arguing, but why? Is it a dropped gun period, even if it is still in the holster? Or is there another rule I can't seem to find about gear malfunction?

Thanks

[JThompson]

I see that everybody says it is a DQ. I'm not arguing, but why? Is it a dropped gun period, even if it is still in the holster? Or is there another rule I can't seem to find about gear malfunction?

Thanks

10.5.3

If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or

unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded

or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of

fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other

stable object will not be disqualified provided:

I see what you are driving it.... here's the deal, once the MR has been given, you must be in control of that firearm at all times. If the holster and gun hit the ground you were not in control. Now, if this was outside the COF it would be like any other dropped gun and you would ask a RO to pick it up. Doesn the book specifically state anything about the holster hitting the ground? No, it does not, but everything can not be spelled out or it would resemble a phone book.

Edited October 25, 2010 by JThompson

[aztecdriver]

Don't forget - 5.2.1 has relevance here:

5.2.1 Carry and Storage – Except when within the boundaries of a safety area, or when under the supervision and direct command of a Range Officer, competitors must carry their handguns unloaded in a gun case, gun bag or in a holster securely attached to a belt on their person (see Rule 10.5.1).

[Sarge]

These two posts made the connection for me. Thanks

[Mark K]

I see that everybody says it is a DQ. I'm not arguing, but why? Is it a dropped gun period, even if it is still in the holster? Or is there another rule I can't seem to find about gear malfunction?

Thanks

10.5.3

If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or

unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded

or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of

fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other

stable object will not be disqualified provided:

I see what you are driving it.... here's the deal, once the MR has been given, you must be in control of that firearm at all times. If the holster and gun hit the ground you were not in control. Now, if this was outside the COF it would be like any other dropped gun and you would ask a RO to pick it up. Doesn the book specifically state anything about the holster hitting the ground? No, it does not, but everything can not be spelled out or it would resemble a phone book.

I am going to disagree (maybe). One of the reasons that we do not get DQ'd when we do a MR, place the gun in the holster, and the muzzle is pointing at our foot/body (i.e. sweeping ourselves) is that a loaded gun, on safety, and in the holster is considered to be in a safe condition (if memory serves). We can legally run with a loaded gun in the holster (locked or hand on gun). So, being devil's advocate a little bit, if the holster falls off with the gun in it, how did that condition change. We could possibly go the the rule stating the holster must be firmly attached to the waist, and thus is not in our control...............?

Mark K

[ima45dv8]

We could possibly go the the rule stating the holster must be firmly attached to the waist, and thus is not in our control...............?

Mark K

I think that was the point Ken was trying to make in post #12 above.

[JThompson]

We could possibly go the the rule stating the holster must be firmly attached to the waist, and thus is not in our control...............?

Mark K

I think that was the point Ken was trying to make in post #12 above.

Ya, but he is "under the supervision" of an RO, so even though it should apply I don't see that it does the way it's written. Basically, what you have here is a dropped gun during a cof. It's no different than a friend of mine who just got DQed at the Nats. H was done USC and then put it in the holster. He then bumped it going for the lock and the gun hit the ground. Even though it was clear, the gun wasn't either in a holster or otherwise under his control.

[aztecdriver]

We could possibly go the the rule stating the holster must be firmly attached to the waist, and thus is not in our control...............?

Mark K

I think that was the point Ken was trying to make in post #12 above.

Indeed - not to bring up another tangent, but just as removing the holster with gun in it from the belt anywhere but in the safe area is not permitted, the same would apply.

JT - This is true, but what I'm referring to is that when the holster leaves the belt, it's no longer inert, ie., no longer holstered and indeed a dropped gun. We're not saying it's a DQ for handling outside of the cof while not supervised - but that in order to be considered safely holstered during the COF, the holster must remain fixed and attached to the belt.

My CRO at Nats posed this question to us as one of those "let's see if I can stump you" discussions. As a result, last Tuesday I checked my bladetech production holster that I had not touched since March. All three of my screws were either backed out or far enough out that they would have fallen during the match.

ETA - I was shuffling papers on that stage and that sucked. Sorry to your friend.

Edited October 25, 2010 by aztecdriver

[High Lord Gomer]

One of the reasons that we do not get DQ'd when we do a MR, place the gun in the holster, and the muzzle is pointing at our foot/body (i.e. sweeping ourselves) is that a loaded gun, on safety, and in the holster is considered to be in a safe condition (if memory serves).

The only reason we don't get a DQ for sweeping ourselves when holstering and drawing the gun is the exception granted in:

10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor's body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping).

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor's fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns. Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7

...and, a ruling dated 8-17-10, NROI decided that you cannot sweep yourself while the gun is in the holster. From: http://www.uspsa.org...ils.php?indx=46

Question: If someone adjust their holster after make ready command and puts their hand under the bottom of the holster where the hand is exposed to the muzzle considered sweeping?

Answer: No, 10.5.5 reads Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor's body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping). The definition in the appendix of sweeping is, Pointing the muzzle of a firearm at any part of any person's body. This rule has never been about a holstered gun with the trigger unexposed, to be considered part of sweeping. Though the rule and definition do not explain this as clearly as should be, 10.5.5.1 will read "Sweeping does not apply to a handgun holstered in compliance with Rules 5.2.1 and 5.2.7".

[JThompson]

We could possibly go the the rule stating the holster must be firmly attached to the waist, and thus is not in our control...............?

Mark K

I think that was the point Ken was trying to make in post #12 above.

Indeed - not to bring up another tangent, but just as removing the holster with gun in it from the belt anywhere but in the safe area is not permitted, the same would apply.

JT - This is true, but what I'm referring to is that when the holster leaves the belt, it's no longer inert, ie., no longer holstered and indeed a dropped gun. We're not saying it's a DQ for handling outside of the cof while not supervised - but that in order to be considered safely holstered during the COF, the holster must remain fixed and attached to the belt.

My CRO at Nats posed this question to us as one of those "let's see if I can stump you" discussions. As a result, last Tuesday I checked my bladetech production holster that I had not touched since March. All three of my screws were either backed out or far enough out that they would have fallen during the match.

ETA - I was shuffling papers on that stage and that sucked. Sorry to your friend.

I agree with you and would make the same ruling as stated above. What I am saying is that 5.2.1 and it's link to 10.5.1 would seem to apply better OUTSIDE the cof. In reading the linked DQ of 10.5.1 you have:

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area

or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command

issued by, a Range Officer.

EDIT: As an aside I think a cleared dropped gun is a cleared dropped gun and should be treated like any other unloaded dropped gun. This is not because pf my friend either.....

JT

Edited October 25, 2010 by JThompson

[Mark K]

We could possibly go the the rule stating the holster must be firmly attached to the waist, and thus is not in our control...............?

Mark K

I think that was the point Ken was trying to make in post #12 above.

My Bad, Mark. I was kinda scanning the thread while at work. I should know better than to open mouth and insert foot. I should have read more closely before adding to the thread.

Good thread.

[JThompson]

Yes you should Mark, but thanks for playing.

I've gotta come down and stay with you for a week or so this winter. It's been too damn long. You guys have any big matches down there? Hey, I could setup a few stages on top of a local match and make a hell of a show...

JT

[B_Ayers]

Well, I must add that the gun and all ammo must be worn @ waist level @ all times unless you are a female and you are allowed to wear it @ hip level and must be worn on your belt. If the holster falls off with the gun in the holster then it is not @ waist level. I do not have the exact number right now, but I believe it is in chapter 4 or the appendix?

Anyway, It is a DQ. Call them Mr./Mrs. Soft serve....

[Singlestack]

Well, I must add that the gun and all ammo must be worn @ waist level @ all times unless you are a female and you are allowed to wear it @ hip level and must be worn on your belt. If the holster falls off with the gun in the holster then it is not @ waist level. I do not have the exact number right now, but I believe it is in chapter 4 or the appendix?

Anyway, It is a DQ. Call them Mr./Mrs. Soft serve....

The OP was talking about after MR. If your holster is not at waist level you can't get to MR.