World Shoot 'advice' to US shooters

[Strick]

I am curious because I saw one of your other threads introducing yourself. You said you were new to the U.S. and USPSA. Have you shot an USPSA matches or any major USPSA matches like Nationals or are you basing these ideas purely on a match book?

I believe good shooters are good shooters and the reason they are at the top is because they are able to adapt to the what the stage requires.

[MontyMart]

So, in light of your brilliant assessment, what do you suggest USPSA do to improve our chances in winning Open and Production in the next World Shoot?

The first step in improving is like I said before to start from the ground up. The area matches need to be more challenging along with the nationals. I look over the stages posted online regularly. I barely ever see weak hand, shots past 20 yds, small steel, unloaded gun starts, requirement to load mag pouches from start, shooting from low ports, covered swingers with no shoots, etc. The US needs to embrace DVC and not just speed. Eric teaches to practice the things that you are weak at. I was told that the World Shoot Qualifier in SC was a wide open SPEED match. You will never see this in Europe. At this years US nationals, a no shoot is put on an Elephant sized US target at 7 yards and you call it challenging. My thesis statement is that US shooters are unintentionally training to lose in Greece.

Next the US shooters need to accept the rules and challenges in IPSC shooting. They can not rely on their shooting reputation to bend the rules. An example of this is Dave Savogy US Glock shooter, he has stated that he will not compete again against Adam Tyc because of a rule technicality. Also, I am told that the better US shooters like Rob Latham and Ted Jarret are afraid to shoot in third world countries. Us shooters are too comfortable in their own environment. How can US team win if the best shooters are left at home?

I hope I do not offend anyone or break the Brian Emos Forum rules. It is only my intent to help. Please listen to my advice and embrace change!

[MontyMart]

Why would the long distances and smaller targets only be applicable to Open and Production? Or is it just because an American shooter the other divisions?

Eric and Adam are two of the very best in the world. If they win it's because they're the best shooters at the match*, not because the Americans shot a recent match or two with short range targets. Unless of course you mistakenly believe that the only "training" the Americans do is on match day.

[deleted]

You are right. Eric and Adam are the best in the World. They follow the rules and don't complain. This allows them to focus 100 percent on their shooting performance.

Match training is like none other. This can not be compared to practice.

Your bud,

MontyG

[MontyMart]

I am curious because I saw one of your other threads introducing yourself. You said you were new to the U.S. and USPSA. Have you shot an USPSA matches or any major USPSA matches like Nationals or are you basing these ideas purely on a match book?

I believe good shooters are good shooters and the reason they are at the top is because they are able to adapt to the what the stage requires.

Yes, I live in Kansas now. I hope to find a club nearby and get involved in stage design changes to be more IPSC. I have never shot USPSA yet. I base my opinion on match booklet, videos, forums, and talking with friends.

Yes, you are correct. A good shooter must be able to adapt to any stage.

Thanks,

MontyG

[ALBY]

we are getting trolled here...

[JThompson]

And here I just thought you came in Trolling for attention.

JT

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Reminds me of when that french dude started talking smack to Ricky Bobby. Might have to put a little "Shake and Bake" on him.

[rgkeller]

I spoke with Eric's father last year. He mentioned that Eric will probably not compete in the US much more because of this. The targets and competitors in the US are not as challenging as in Europe.

And the last time Eric competed in the US, he did not win.

I hope you are not referring to the Florida Open where Eric was very sick with a stomach virus. He spent most of his time in the water closet that match. Eric's father recommended that Eric pull out of the match when he was stumbling on the range. Eric would not quit and as a result finished 2nd. I don't remember which American shooter beat him. Frank Garcia? I have respect for someone that eager to win.

IPSC requires a number of stages to be high round count, 32 rounds. This would require an Open shooter to reload. Once again, I did not see that in the Nationals booklet. Isn't this competition going to determine the US World Team?

I was at that match and followed the super squad for the last five stages. Graffaul gave no indication that he was ill. He did blow a sizable lead in the last two stages and lost the match.

[ima45dv8]

Split from the USPSA nats update thread.

Thank you for my own thread. I hope US shooters will be willing to embrace change and accept the idea of challenging themselves like the rest of the world.

Monty, I'm trying to keep folks from dogpiling you, but please make my job a little easier with some self-moderation.

Painting with such a broad brush and saying we don't challenge ourselves "like the rest of the world" might make me think you are trolling. That would not be good. Be as respectful as you wish to be treated.

[ima45dv8]

I base my opinion on match booklet, videos, forums, and talking with friends.

Ahhh. That explains a lot.

You should make the effort to get some actual real-life experiences with USPSA matches before declaring them substandard. Things are rarely as they appear in a match booklet.

[shootingchef]

Are the misspelled names intentional?

I would never travel to a 2nd or 3rd world country. Why risk it?

This is just a game, and here, the US, most of US play USPSA, a slightly different set of rules and ideas. For those who want to shot IPSC, go for it and go to where the matches are held, or hold your own. Please do not come into our country, insult US and try to change US or USPSA.

[outerlimits]

Here in the states, We shoot far targets with rifles.

[old506]

The dude sure knows how to kick the hornets nest......And then runs.

[Kevin Spencer]

So, in light of your brilliant assessment, what do you suggest USPSA do to improve our chances in winning Open and Production in the next World Shoot?

I barely ever see weak hand, shots past 20 yds, small steel, unloaded gun starts, requirement to load mag pouches from start, shooting from low ports, covered swingers with no shoots, etc. The US needs to embrace DVC and not just speed. Eric teaches to practice the things that you are weak at.

Well I am at the Nationals and there is 1 stage with weak hand out to @25 yards, there are 4 unloaded gun starts and at least 2 shooting from low ports, that I can remember. So your a little off in your comments. Which country has won the most World Shoots?

[Flexmoney]

Eric has proven he is the best Open shooter in the world. That doesn't make the American shooters soft. In fact, I think that the American teams usually win the Team medals at the World Shoots. (and the Philippines often is second)

The last WS, KC and Max finished at 94%+

In fact, the Europeans only have a couple of others in the top 20 in Open, IIRC?

Saul shoots in the USA (and Europe) quite often. I'd suggest using his placement as an objective barometer.

Eric is a force in and of himself.

[pvhendrix]

I am curious because I saw one of your other threads introducing yourself. You said you were new to the U.S. and USPSA. Have you shot an USPSA matches or any major USPSA matches like Nationals or are you basing these ideas purely on a match book?

I believe good shooters are good shooters and the reason they are at the top is because they are able to adapt to the what the stage requires.

Yes, I live in Kansas now. I hope to find a club nearby and get involved in stage design changes to be more IPSC. I have never shot USPSA yet. I base my opinion on match booklet, videos, forums, and talking with friends.

Yes, you are correct. A good shooter must be able to adapt to any stage.

Thanks,

MontyG

Why would you throw rocks when you admit you have never been to the quarry. If things are so much better where ever you came from... why are you in Kansas.

It would make a more convincing argument if you had at least tried a few USPSA matches to have a basis for your comments. And just for the record a number of us were at the Florida Open, and have first hand observations, the year Eric lost.

[JThompson]

Leatham.

[old506]

Remember the forum rules......Remember the forum rules.......Remember the Alamo.....No, No, Remember the forum rules.....

Edited October 12, 2010 by old506

[Chris Keen]

This is better than a Friday Flame War! ...... cause it's only Tuesday!!!

[Seth]

Yep... Eric won open at WSXV, but KC was a JUNIOR and was just over 5% off Eric's mark. Meanwhile, Jo Jo won Modified.

And for those that don't need headlights to shoot, lets remember that Travis won WSXV in Standard and Blake and Shannon Smith took 2nd and 3rd respectively. Tyc won Production but Mink, Vogel, Horner, and Hobdell rounded out the top 5.

The argument that the Americans can't keep up doesn't hold water in the slightest.

[a.roberts]

Yep... Eric won open at WSXV, but KC was a JUNIOR and was just over 5% off Eric's mark. Meanwhile, Jo Jo won Modified.

And for those that don't need headlights to shoot, lets remember that Travis won WSXV in Standard and Blake and Shannon Smith took 2nd and 3rd respectively. Tyc won Production but Mink, Vogel, Horner, and Hobdell rounded out the top 5.

The argument that the Americans can't keep up doesn't hold water in the slightest.

Exactly.

Got to look at all divisions, can't really focus on just one.

[Flexmoney]

The US needs to embrace DVC and not just speed.

No argument there. (But, don't assume all USPSA matches are hosers. )

I was told that the World Shoot Qualifier in SC was a wide open SPEED match.

I wasn't there (and neither were you). I can't speak to that. However, I did design and setup the stages at last years USA IPSC Nationals. It wasn't a "speed" match. Lots of variables.

I am all for plenty of accuracy and tight shots. Many are. Many like a good hoser stage as well. Match Directors here are mostly free to design what their customers want to see. (the good ones design what their customers NEED to see, as well)

You have brought up some good points. Thanks for posting.

[HuskySig]

Also, I am told that the better US shooters like Rob Latham and Ted Jarret are afraid to shoot in third world countries.

Not that I'll ever shoot at a World Shoot, but I have to agree with Rob and Todd about third world countries. I like taking a crap in a toilet and being able to use toilet paper instead of my hand.

[Avezorak]

This is better than Springer,LOL

[pjb45]

Without getting into who is the best pi!^$#!#^!ng match, he does bring up a couple of valid points:

1: Nationals stages are low round counts.

2. It seems not matter where the National match is held, the stages are like little postage stamps in the berm. By this I mean it is three steps and shot four rounds, move four steps shot six rounds. Stop and go and little shooting. I remember a GM telling me that shooting on the move was the mark of a good GM.

For those who comment the shooting is not a foot race, I would disagree. Little stages favor fast twitch muscles so it is a foot race that favors those muscles.

Look to A2 for a real test of shooting. The stages are developed locally without regard to the ROs mobility. There are at least two stages that require shooting on the move and moving 30 yards +. Four stages that have memory involved. Plus assorted other stages. That match is probably one of the best matches in the world because they test everything; accuracy, speed, no shoots galore, hard cover, swingers, plate rack, etc.

3. A lot of local matches rarely put targets out past 10 yards, btw: 4 weak hand targets at 25 is really not a good counter point. A good counter point would be if 30% of all targets were out past 20 yards.

In summary, his observation that USA could use more distance in their target placement is probably true. A counter-point would be we (and I really mean me) really do like some hoser stages. I like 32 round stages, lots of them but I also like the short quick ones too.

[delete]

Edited October 12, 2010 by ima45dv8
inflammatory question removed - thanks for playing