Jesse Tischauser Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 At a recent match I saw several guys start with an extra round in their hand before the buzzer. Upon start signal they would top off their gun and proceed to shoot the stage. Is ammo in hand legal in outlaw 3 gun or was I seeing a little gamesmanship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wi shooter Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 I saw it at the O3GC also, I asked the Ro, and he said it was OK. I think it is just a match directors/individual RO decision. I was surprised to see it myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken hebert Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 If not prohibited by match/stage rules..... I've specifically asked at some matches, and have usually been told that all ammo must be on belt/on gun (sidesaddle) ect. But... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMcG Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 When running an 870 I commonly place 12ga shells between my fingers and load them in as needed if the stage calls for not being able to load from traditional pouches/shell strippers. I kept a 9th round in my teeth once and the RO just rolled his eyes. Probably not the best decision and I only did it once. I have seen this at several matches and simply ask the RO if it is not addressed in the rules. Kyle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Schmitt Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Same here guys, I asked the RO and they said it was permitted. I will say that my personal belief is that if the stage start is low ready or port arms that would lead me to believe that I have both my hand on my gun in the appropriate hand hold areas of that gun(and empty of ammo). Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 there was a lot of leeway given and taken at ozark regarding ammo in hand. I think it was primarily an uncertain knowledge of the commonly known rules, whether it was intentionally allowed or simply an oversight can only be answered by the MD's. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 2, 2010 Author Share Posted October 2, 2010 I kind of assumed it was not allowed in any match? I guess I need to read the rules more closely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 ... Is ammo in hand legal in outlaw 3 gun or was I seeing a little gamesmanship? Check the match's rulebook... What? They don't have a rulebook? (Or, if they do have a "rulebook", it's not complete enough to address the question.) We have similar issues at some of our independent matches. Starts with rounds in hands aren't uncommon here, nor are starts with sights on target. Whatever. Best, ac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StealthyBlagga Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 USPSA/IPSC prohibits it. The next revision of IMA/SMM3G rules will prohibit it also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn-rgr Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 ... Is ammo in hand legal in outlaw 3 gun or was I seeing a little gamesmanship? Check the match's rulebook... What? They don't have a rulebook? (Or, if they do have a "rulebook", it's not complete enough to address the question.) We have similar issues at some of our independent matches. Starts with rounds in hands aren't uncommon here, nor are starts with sights on target. Whatever. Best, ac Thats exactly what we need.......another 3000 page rulebook that talks about everything including how much toilet paper you can use from the port a pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Exactally,as long as it's not a saftey issue,and it's not, leave it out of the rule book. If the rules don't say you can't, then you can. everymost RO's nightmare , a 3000 page rule book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Some rule sets address it, if not, then the individual stage brefing should be the deciding factor. Its pretty simple, if you want a 3000 page rule book that addresses EVERYTHING, then, well, you know the answer... Something that could? be helpful is a small one liner in the rule set that states something to the effect that "The Written Stage Briefing that the RO reads at the beginning of each stage supercedes all other written/verbal/implied/rumored stage descriptions." IMHO I think at Ozark the ROs were either allowed to do what they wanted (to a degree) at the start, or they were told specifically (which is my guess) how to answer some questions such as "may I hold ammo in my hand at the start?". From what I saw, ALL of the ROs at Ozark were VERY consistent in how they ran their stages. cudos to them! Is it wrong? only if the rule set forbids it! Best is to ask before doing if you are not sure... I did it several times on shotgun starts at Ozark. Was it helpful or gaming? I really don't think so... espcially when I dropped one of the 2 rounds I was holding right at the buzzer... jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abn-rgr Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 Thanks JJ, thats what I wanted to hear. The ROs, myself, Damon, and James did about a hour long brief before we started shooting on Thursday. I think we were on the same sheet of music for the most part. That is one of my gripes is inconsistency between stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac4wordplay Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 ... If the rules don't say you can't, then you can. ... If that's in the rules, then the issue is addressed simply and sufficiently; if not, it leaves plenty of room for confusion - as indicated by the OP. everymost RO's nightmare , a 3000 page rule book Another nightmare for diligent RO's is a lack of information to keep a match/stage consistent/fair in procedure and scoring/penalties. Your 3,000 page rule book isn't necessary, but sometimes a half-page rule book isn't quite sufficient either. This isn't too much of an issue for small, local match, but when $1,000 + is tied up in travel expense, match fees, etc., and there are high value prizes on the table... Best, ac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toothandnail Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 I've always been a "the less rules the better" kinda guy , until there's an obvious problem don't fix it. I've seen a few guys who are just shooting for the prize, they never seem to be haveing any fun, I hope I never get to that point,not likley, I'm not that good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 regarding the Ozark match, I was not saying it was illegal or not correct for that match. just that in the 2 known rulesets it is not allowed in one and generally not allowed in the other. And normally we revert back to those 2 known rulesets for clarification. However, so long as it was handled consistently on each individual stage then there really is no issue. I know when I have my talk with my RO's I tell them that if there are going to do something just do it consistently throughout the match, even if its a screw up or anything, if its handled consistently then no one can claim unfairness. The times I watched people do it at Ozark it tended to be a non-issue because they just missed more and needed to reload again anyway. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted October 2, 2010 Share Posted October 2, 2010 The times I watched people do it at Ozark it tended to be a non-issue because they just missed more and needed to reload again anyway. trapr Were you hiding in the locust trees watching me shoot???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 whats a locust tree????????????? trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 3, 2010 Author Share Posted October 3, 2010 Locust are cool!!! I'm with Trapr. As long as it's the same for everybody I don't care if we all get a speedloader of shotgun shells to smash in the gun after the buzzer as long as we all get the same deal on every stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 could always loosely affix it to the gun take it right off the gun immediately Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsydlooknin75 Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 As long as the particular stage is run the same for everyone, I dont really think that it makes a big difference. And that doesnt mean that every competitor has to do it either. I feel that everyone should have the same opportunity, wether they decide to take it or not that is another story. I shot a local match where we started our shotguns tube loaded, bolt locked to the rear, so I had a round in my hand close to the port, dropped it in and closed the bolt. MD didnt state that we couldnt do it that way, most guys were pulling one off their belt and coming all the way up to the gun to put that round in. I was close to the end of the shooters so no one had tried it prior to me. But if the rules dont specifically state that you cant, I dont see why the competitior isnt given the opportunity to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 I have taped a round to the gun before. Was barely on there but technically all ammo was on the gun/belt.when the gun came up, ripped the shell off the tape on the mount so it was in hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 3, 2010 Author Share Posted October 3, 2010 I have taped a round to the gun before. Was barely on there but technically all ammo was on the gun/belt.when the gun came up, ripped the shell off the tape on the mount so it was in hand That's some real gamesmanship!!! I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1chota Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 I have taped a round to the gun before. Was barely on there but technically all ammo was on the gun/belt.when the gun came up, ripped the shell off the tape on the mount so it was in hand That's some real gamesmanship!!! I like it. with my luck, i would have loaded the tape with the shell. what fun! Safariland makes a two round holder that fits the belt. i put mine right in front so if i think i need it, i can reach right away and load them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 Basically it hung right in front of the trigger on a 1100 right against the ezloader. Buzzer goes off hand goes to the round to secure it, fire 1 shot thumb the round in the gun and slide the hand forward. I have figured out now a rubber band works even better for that. Keep one in the shooting bag for those 10 round hoser stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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