Why will I be unhappy with a Para P16?

[RIIID]

Buying a gun just because you see everyone else has one isn't the best advice, if a gun doesn't fit and feel right to "you" the shooter don't force yourself to live with it. If you like the para style frame find a Springfield forged frame and build what you want and need. It's amazing to here people say "This gun feels so good but I'll stick to what I have." after they pick up a Tanfoglio gun. There isn't one brand of production line gun that is perfect for everyone, they all can be modified to be better.

My personal opinion on Para is that they are too soft when it comes to their metal on all of their parts, but there has been several folks who have good success with them. There is one guy who seemed to build his shooting career on using a Para, I don't think Todd suffered all those years with an inferior product just to have a sponsorship.

Rich

[Duane Thomas]

Well, I'm not a mind reader so I don't really know what Todd was thinking.

[Singlestack]

+1.

But I do know what he was shooting...

[G-ManBart]

+1.

But I do know what he was shooting...

Was being the operative word?

[pvhendrix]

+1.

But I do know what he was shooting...

Was being the operative word?

Actually... I shot with him last Sat and he is still shooting the Para. "Was" not being so operative.

Edited September 9, 2010 by pvhendrix

[larry cazes]

One time I was discussing the concept of using Para-Ordnance guns as platforms for custom builds with Bruce Gray, and Bruce commented, "They just don't have it." I said, "Okay, I'm quite willing to accept that, but what is this 'it' that they just don't have?" Bruce replied, "Fit. Finish. Metallurgy. They don't have it."

If you want to know what is, for most people, the best performing platform in any particular division, look at what most people are shooting. It really is that simple. Competition shooting, as far as the equipment goes, is a wonderful pressure cooker, and very much a matter of survival of the fittest. As they used to tell me in the Army, "Only the strong survive, the weak shall fall by the wayside." The vast majority of shooters in USPSA who want a double stack are not shooting Paras even though they cost less than the options they are choosing. This tells us something. Despite what some might think, we don't ENJOY throwing money at our guns if it's not necessary. If you could get the same level of performance for less money, most people would be running Paras. The fact that they aren't, even though the S_I costs more, again, tells us something.

Gotta disagree. That would be true if there was not a huge tendency to "follow the leader" in this and any other organized sport.

[salilus]

I just picked up a Para P16.40 in a trade and have been watching this thread closely as it is some if the same thoughts that I have been having. S_I guns are not perfect. I have seen many have malfunctions. But, I see the same things from just about every maker of the XX11 guns. Most of the time its not the gun, its the kitchen table gun smith or ammo related. I had a few jams when I got the para, they were my ammo. After shooting an XD for 3 years, I had never needed to chamber check anything, now I do. I also broke the para power extractor very quickly, bad ammo helped on an already known weak part. Since then, I have replaced the extractor thanks to EGW guns and have started chamber checking every round. I could not and still cannot afford 1500 on a gun by itself before having to buy mags and getting them "tuned" to work. I can however afford a cheaper gun and replace the internals as needed.

As for the follow what everybody else shoots, people assume that the more expensive the price, the better the product. Suave shampoo cleans your hair but paying 15 bucks a bottle is "better". There are studies out there showing that you will enjoy a product better it you paid more for it. We have all heard that you get what you pay for.

[Gary1911A1]

Another well known pistolsmith told me much the same as Duane posted. Now that Todd has left Para does any other well known shooter use them? None that I know of.

[pjb45]

This probably should not matter much but I believe Todd left Para to start is own company.

STI is a much better investment. Buy it used and shoot it. Upgrade as you see fit. The resale value will always be better than that of a Para.

[G-ManBart]

+1.

But I do know what he was shooting...

Was being the operative word?

Actually... I shot with him last Sat and he is still shooting the Para. "Was" not being so operative.

From what I've heard, that's only temporary

[RIIID]

The "Was" is how many years and how many Championships while shooting a Para? He has a few more wins left in him shooting his own brand of guns and it will be fun watching him do it.

Rich

[Jammer1911]

I think that you should shoot what you can afford. Sti, Svi, Para no matter. I have a para 16-40 and have not had any issues other than ammo (usually my fault). I do agree it is a bit finiky with factory ammo. 1.20 seems to be the majic number for OAL. I spent less on the para and was able to buy a good belt, holster, mag pouches and Dawson base pads + lots of components for ammo and have had fewer issue that a friend of mine who but the more expensive STI. That being said I would like a caspian or a SA wide body .40. IMHO

[Jammer1911]

Oh yeah and I forgot to mention I baought additional mags for less than half of the STI style mags.

[paul gilman]

I have been shooting Para's since the late 80's, my first was a open gun built on gun smith kit I shoot it until the comp cracked and had to be replaced.

I then built another one and they both are going strong. In fact I am changing the to 38 sc. The mags work better with out the simi rim cases of the super.

I all so have a limited p16 40 set up for limited can load 20 rounds in my almost stock mags and once I loaded ammo to 1.20 it know is 100 % I don't even chamber check the ammo any more.

I also have another one in 45 that is 100% and I some times shoot it in limited.

The S_I guns are good guns but you can shoot a para and not have it be the gun holding you back.

[818-DVC]

Not only cast frames, but slides too, no?

I have sheared a p16 slide at the front serrations. The gun was a total pain in the arse. I remember my first shot I fired from a 2011 and knew it was the ticket for me. Single stack is one thing, but limited/open it's all about a tripp or caspian frame. Watch the classifieds closely and you will find a decent used tuned STI that runs great that someone has already had worked over and is ready to race. A factory new STI could be almost as troublesome as the para. Buy used and get something race ready. That, or save up $2500+ for an all out custom by one one of the many fine smiths building race guns.

OR

buy a used glock 35 and change out the trigger & sights. Buy mag extentions, some griptape, a magwell, and you have a gun you can reliably shoot both production & limited for under $1000.

[Duane Thomas]

Not only cast frames, but slides too, no?

Yep.

[Duane Thomas]

buy a used glock 35 and change out the trigger & sights. Buy mag extentions, some griptape, a magwell, and you have a gun you can reliably shoot both production & limited for under $1000.

This is true. Dave Sevigny has won at least one Limited national championship with such a gun - though he went of stippling instead of grip tape.

[818-DVC]

I still prefer The 2011 platform over glock. However I bought a lightly used g-35 with all the fixins including vanek trigger, 3.5 disconnect, Dawson adj rr & FO front sight, tungsten guide rod, THE brass magwell, lone wolf bbls in both 9x19 & .40 with 4 9 mags & 4 .40 mags for under $700. It's no single action sub #2 trigger, but it's good enough! It has never failed in a match or during practice.

It balances alright and it eats whatever I feed it. Wish I liked shooting it more!

[GrumpyOne]

I still prefer The 2011 platform over glock. However I bought a lightly used g-35 with all the fixins including vanek trigger, 3.5 disconnect, Dawson adj rr & FO front sight, tungsten guide rod, THE brass magwell, lone wolf bbls in both 9x19 & .40 with 4 9 mags & 4 .40 mags for under $700. It's no single action sub #2 trigger, but it's good enough! It has never failed in a match or during practice.

It balances alright and it eats whatever I feed it. Wish I liked shooting it more!

Holy hell, Batman! You stole that gun! Why can't I ever find deals like that?

[818-DVC]

I would imagine if you go to enough matches, or follow all the different classifieds, you can find some really good deals. I recently saw a LNIB 35 sell for $400 at a range. That's a good starting point. I seen race ready glocks in the classifieds here for $6-700.

[ap38]

I have one of each. I only put an ICE magwell and extended button on the STI. Had a lot of work done on the Para. Both run great. I prefer the STI. The only time I had to send it back, for something minor, the STI customer service was fantastic.

ap

[Krag]

I've shot a 16.40 in Limited and L-10 for four years now. The ONLY mods I made to it were a fiber optic front sight, arched mainspring housing and a mag well. It came out of the box with a beautiful 3 lbs. trigger. I have had NO problems with it in all this time including when I shoot super light loads in a steel match. I'm not knocking STI, SVI or anyone else but I think my 16.40 is one of the best firearm investments I've ever made.

P.S. - I also shoot a Para LDA 18.9 in Production and love it.

Edited September 13, 2010 by Krag

[Bob DuBois]

+1 with Paul, had built Para's in super, 40 and 45 some of the most accurate pistols I have owned. All had new barrels installed, seemed the Para barrels shot out quickly. After my first STI never looked back and have STI's in 9,40,45 and super. While the Para's were as accurate, never looked back or missed them.