Classifier Reshoots and other Cherry Picking

[Steve J]

Two questions actually.

1. Are classifier reshoots really legal? The first, tanked one being used for the match score and the reshoot being sent in for record. I see it a lot. Heck, I've done it.

2. Can a competitior request that his classifier not be turned in for record if his performance will hurt his chances of moving up in class? That's kind of reverse sandbagging or cherry picking. Is it legal?

Thanks.

[sperman]

For question #1.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=95728

[lugnut]

I can't see how #2 would be even remotely legal.

[Steve J]

I can't see how #2 would be even remotely legal.

This is from the classifier policy page on USPSA.org. From the thread link sperman provided it's clear that people can reshoot for a price until they get the score they want,. This reference seems to require that all sheets be turned in whether or not the competitor wants the score. Is not turning in a bad score worse than reshooting until you get the desired result?

10. All classification score sheets must be returned toUSPSA for entry. Neither the Range officer nor the Competitor may cross out or invalidate a score, and that future revisions to the classification score sheets reflect this change in policy. (adopted 2/1/98)

[Spray_N_Prey]

I've heard of some matches allowing you to "reshoot" the classifier as many times as you would like and turn in the best. At our club the policy is: the classifier you shoot in the match is the one turned in for overall score. When the match is finished and the other stages have been torn down (unless your an out of town shooter needing to leave) you are allowed one (1) reshoot of the classifier. If I could shoot every classifier 10 times or so, sure I could make M or GM just by throwing lead down range. I think a legitimate reshoot or two should be allowed, but not just setting there over and over.

On number two, we have been asked to just throw it away and refuse, you shoot - it gets turned in!!!

[spanky]

i certainly believe that any and all attempts should be submitted

[JThompson]

They want all sheets so they can collect the fee for each attempt....

JT

[Corey]

if you have to reshoot a classifier 3 or 4 or 5 times to get the score you want to earn a certain classification, IMO you dont deserve it. You dont get to shoot every stage at a big match 2 or 3 times if you have a screw up, gun jam, whatever. you have one on a classifier, its clear that your skill level is at that point. Take your classifier score and move along.

Besides, if you cant score really well on the first try, why would you want to get bumped up a class and have to compete with the higher ups on a regular basis?

just my $.02

[spanky]

if you have to reshoot a classifier 3 or 4 or 5 times to get the score you want to earn a certain classification, IMO you dont deserve it. You dont get to shoot every stage at a big match 2 or 3 times if you have a screw up, gun jam, whatever. you have one on a classifier, its clear that your skill level is at that point. Take your classifier score and move along.

Besides, if you cant score really well on the first try, why would you want to get bumped up a class and have to compete with the higher ups on a regular basis?

just my $.02

The only way I could ever see me wanting to re-shoot a classifier would be if I had a gun malfunction on a classifier and I was trying to move up.

[Graham Smith]

I have never even see these questions come up at a match - you shoot what you shoot. Having said that, there are a few classifiers where I prayed I did bad enough to get a 0 and would have love to have reshot. And I did see one person one time who hit a no-shoot on his second target and just stopped shooting so he would get enough penalties to get a 0.

With that in mind, yes it would be nice to have the occasional do-over. But not "shoot it till you like it" scoring - this ain't a video game.

[wgnoyes]

From the Marilyn Stanford days when reporting was printed out and snail-mailed, USPSA really did used to want the actual scoresheets sent in, and as a result they had great piles of the damned things stacked up all over everywhere in Sedro Woolley. That was before the days of electronic reporting.

If I keypunch a given classifier score into ezwinscore, it's eligible to be reported. I say "eligible", because the way the system works, he looks for the single highest HF for the competitor on a given classifier out of how ever many times the competitor attempted it, and adds that score and THAT SCORE ONLY to the generated .txt file that is uploaded to USPSA.

[wgnoyes]

You couldn't and wouldn't want to do this for classes D-M, but for GM I've sometimes thought that a requirement of that highest class should be, in addition to the requisite number of classifier runs, placing 95% or higher overall in your division at a Lvl2 or higher match. Probably unreasonable, but I've thought of it now and again.

[Dave S]

You couldn't and wouldn't want to do this for classes D-M, but for GM I've sometimes thought that a requirement of that highest class should be, in addition to the requisite number of classifier runs, placing 95% or higher overall in your division at a Lvl2 or higher match. Probably unreasonable, but I've thought of it now and again.

Now that's an interesting thought....

[matt2ace]

I have had shooters who scored poorly on a classifier, then reshoot it poorly and refuse to pay for the second run (yes, unsportsmanlike behavior). This happened a couple of times which lead to a no-reshoot policy. Shoot it once, take what you get.

Edited August 27, 2010 by matt2ace

[Ron Ankeny]

From the thread link sperman provided it's clear that people can reshoot for a price until they get the score they want,

Not quite true. From the classifier administration handbook,

It is understood that anyone can do poorly on a classifier stage for various reasons, and this is why the USPSA board of directors has allowed members to

reshoot a classifier stage for classification purposes. This permission should not be construed to mean that members

can shoot classifier stages repeatedly until they have a score they like. The integrity of the classification system is at stake.

When I started doing the stats for our club about 10 years ago the language in the administration handbook said something to the effect that a competitor could re-shoot a classifier at the discretion of the MD if the first (match) attempt did not reflect the shooter's known ability. I don't know why that verbiage was removed. The intent was (still is) to submit scores that are valid and reliable. Multiple re-shoots until the competitor is happy has never been the intent of the BOD.

[spanky]

You couldn't and wouldn't want to do this for classes D-M, but for GM I've sometimes thought that a requirement of that highest class should be, in addition to the requisite number of classifier runs, placing 95% or higher overall in your division at a Lvl2 or higher match. Probably unreasonable, but I've thought of it now and again.

I remember seeing someone say something like that in another thread but specifically mentioned having to make 95% or better at Nats.

[Steve J]

What about selectively just not sending in the classifier results for specific shooters if they're looking to move up and the run will hurt their percentage?

[Scott R]

I would support a rule change that only allowed only one attempt that is always sent in.

[Singlestack]

I would support a rule change that only allowed only one attempt that is always sent in.

Why?

What would it help?

[Schutzenmeister]

Clearly some of you have not dealt with EZWinScore ... Not sending an individual's results in is not an option under the program. Yeah, I suppose one could delete the shooter's USPSA number from the registration, but then ... Wouldn't that be tantamount to a 10.6.1 DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct on the part of the club doing it?

Just a thought ...

Edited August 30, 2010 by Schutzenmeister

[Steve J]

Clearly some of you have not dealt with EZWinScore ... Not sending an individual's results in is not an option under the program.

No I haven't, but I have heard that offer made at a classifier match. Curious. Thanks.

[wgnoyes]

Again, the system picks the single highest HF out of all the runs for a competitor in his division on a classifier stage and puts THAT one into the upload file. The only control the stats officer has is to not enter the scoresheet with the highest HF. If that happens to be the competitor's run for match score, then you don't even have that choice, as that one HAS to go into the system.

[Bear23]

I send our club classifiers in for our club. If a shooter requests. i let him shoot it again and submit that score for the classifier report, but not for match score of course. some people do want to move up and or feel they didn't do their best. shooters that want to hit it 8 times and then submit their top score, bothers me.

Personally if i really tank a classifier, i'll shoot it again, usually just to tank it again.

[Scott R]

I would support a rule change that only allowed only one attempt that is always sent in.

Why?

What would it help?

It might help bring some integrity to the classification system.

My feelings are that you should shoot each stage of the match only once(unless there was a valid reason for a reshoot) and the score you earn on the classifier gets sent in regardless of how good or bad it is. Besides, the score you earn on your first attempt at a stage is the game you brought that day, nothing more nothing less. Shooting a classifier multiple times and sending in the best score can lead to an artificially high classification, or possibly even set the HHF for the stage artificially high.

[Nik Habicht]

I would support a rule change that only allowed only one attempt that is always sent in.

Why?

What would it help?

It might help bring some integrity to the classification system.

My feelings are that you should shoot each stage of the match only once(unless there was a valid reason for a reshoot) and the score you earn on the classifier gets sent in regardless of how good or bad it is. Besides, the score you earn on your first attempt at a stage is the game you brought that day, nothing more nothing less. Shooting a classifier multiple times and sending in the best score can lead to an artificially high classification, or possibly even set the HHF for the stage artificially high.

Sure. And having a row of tanked classifiers go in, can depress someone's score --- and that becomes a problem when the competitor is accused of sandbagging....

USPSA's goal for the classification system is that shooters should turn in a performance that represents a realistic approximation of their current skill level. If a shooter truly blows the classifier, giving 'em another crack at the problem (for classification only) isn't a big problem in my book. Multiple reshoots until we get a score we like are....

Much like anything else in life, the trick lies in finding the balance....