Off-Angle, Off-Axis Shooting

[Graham Smith]

First, I want to thank (or damn) Kenny Danz at Eastern Shore Practical Shooters (Sudlersville, MD) for giving me something else I need to spend a lot of time practicing. One stage at Saturdays match was a forest of 16 steel poppers and plates of different sizes with the shooting box behind three sets of stacked barrels. You had to lean way out to the left and right of the barrels to shoot - something I don't do well (either the shooting or the leaning part). We won't talk about it being the first stage of the day or me being the first shooter, I would have sucked if I had been the last shooter on the last stage. But at least I got to provide some comic relief for the rest of the squad (mostly A and M shooters).

So, I've now got to spend some time training on this but one thing I'm still not that clear on is how the point of aim changes. I know that I had the sights dead on some of those targets but I was shooting high, to the left, and to the right everywhere but where the targets were. I even managed to shoot a small popper that was hidden behind a larger one - no idea how I did that.

I suppose I could just put up a bunch of targets and start blasting away, but it would be nice to approach this with some kind of plan in mind.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Graham Smith

[calishootr]

sounds like it was more of a 'hard' lean to the right and or left, rather than shots taken with a pistol canted in some way shape or form??? leaning out does to some degree(depending on body shape and or size) compromize position and stance, thats the whole point ofthe stage, see how you shoot maybe not so balanced, and as you found out, by the sounds of it you were not havingthe same grip as normal, and letting the rounds go high left, so that would indicate a looser than normal grip, depending onthe stage, we have had some shooting positions where it was easier maybe not faster, to shoot it one handed around the corner of objects...

[Graham Smith]

Part of the problem is that shooting around things is not the sort of skills most people I practice on a regular basis. For that matter, I'm not even sure if it's better to extend the arms out or pull them back, bend to the side or bend at the waist and twist, etc.

[BoyGlock]

Part of the problem is that shooting around things is not the sort of skills most people I practice on a regular basis. For that matter, I'm not even sure if it's better to extend the arms out or pull them back, bend to the side or bend at the waist and twist, etc.

I used to have the same problem before but I learned to do it better by doing a bill drill behind a barricade, either leaning to the right or left of the barricade. I shoot on 1 target only each string of 6 shots. The target is positioned w/ differnt angles and distance from the barricade each set of the drill (5 drills per set more or less). My primary goal was to hit all "A"s all the time and feel my body's tension and balance as I shoot the 6 shots. 6 contineous shots in my rate of fire is a lot of time to think and feel. After much success w/ this, I begin to increase my rate of fire and observe how my sights track in recoil w/ the increased rate of fire. My physical position behind the barricade and the gun were somewhat derived from these inputs. Hth

[calishootr]

all depends on your body type as to how much to bend and or twist, me??? im a shorter guy with a short trunk, for me its a hard lean most if not all the time, ive learned a sort of balancing act if you will so its basically no big deal to me, hell i've been known to shoot one handed around stuff the taller/bigger people could shoot 'normally' as for extended arms??? to do it or not??? im a big fan of extended arms, hell your position is compromised as is, lets not add to the mess by maybe tossin a gun jam due to poor recoil control, only time i suck in my arms is on those nasty classifiers w/ the short barricades that i basically cant extend em out on

practice in your house, find a wall/doorway/corner and practice leaning out around it, start with your foot 6 or 8 inches inside the corner, and lean, when that becomes comphy, scoot in to say 12 inches and go from there

[pjb45]

If I understand your statements, shooting around a barricade is a challenge for all.

I was told by a GM in the Seattle area, that when leaning you tend to bring your shots to the inside. He suggested using the outside line/edge of the A zone as the point of aim which should bring the shot into the middle of the A zone.

He went onto describe how a stage was set up that required the shooter to go to a knee or lean to shoot under a stick (both left and right side) and when TGO came up, he took a step lean, cleared the targets and steel, took two steps to the left, lean and cleared the targets. No squatting no kneeling, lean and shoot-- Smoked everyone on that stage.

[Bill Nesbitt]

This is not a smart alec response. Shoot some IDPA. If you're not leaning when you use cover then you aren't doing it right.

Experiment with bending your knee on the side you are leaning into and maybe lifting your other foot up on your toe. Works for me when shooting around barricades etc. I don't cant the gun and I aim normally.

[Flexmoney]

This is not a smart alec response. Shoot some IDPA. If you're not leaning when you use cover then you aren't doing it right.

Experiment with bending your knee on the side you are leaning into ...

+1

Right... instead of more, lean...use more bend in that knee.

[Aloha Robert]

I agree with Flex Money, bend your knee closest to Barricade. This is part of the "corkscrew" method popularized by Jerry Barnhart and others.

However, this is one of the best scenarios for use of the *thumb rest [generic]*® method where it really shines, because you don’t have to have gun in line with arms. It allows the wrist to gain about 40 degrees more arc of fire than the classic method, making tight or wide arc of fire shots much easier.

For the technically inclined, with the classic or “neutral” technique (cammed forward) the wrist is not in “true neutral” it is actually in ulnar deviation, thus making true wrist flexion and extension ( in this case left to right) virtually impossible. It dictates a gun axis in line with the arm. With the *thumb rest [generic]* method and the wrist in true neutral, the gun does not have to be in line with arm and it allows free flexion and extension of wrist which translates to higher arc of fire for any given body position, ( and more rapid acquisition)

Edited August 30, 2010 by Aloha Robert

[Singlestack]

You crack me up with your *thumb rest [generic]*. Sales must be slow.

[Graham Smith]

However, this is one of the best scenarios for use of the *thumb rest [generic]*® method where it really shines, because you don't have to have gun in line with arms. It allows the wrist to gain about 40 degrees more arc of fire than the classic method, making tight or wide arc of fire shots much easier.

For the technically inclined, with the classic or "neutral" technique (cammed forward) the wrist is not in "true neutral" it is actually in ulnar deviation, thus making true wrist flexion and extension ( in this case left to right) virtually impossible. It dictates a gun axis in line with the arm. With the *thumb rest [generic]* method and the wrist in true neutral, the gun does not have to be in line with arm and it allows free flexion and extension of wrist which translates to higher arc of fire for any given body position, ( and more rapid acquisition)

Oh, I see...

.

.

.

.

No, I don't see.

I know all the words but am having trouble putting them together so that they make sense to me.

If I search on "*thumb rest [generic]* method", will I find more? Oh, *thumb rest [generic]* as in Open Guns.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Graham Smith

[Aloha Robert]

However, this is one of the best scenarios for use of the *thumb rest [generic]*® method where it really shines, because you don't have to have gun in line with arms. It allows the wrist to gain about 40 degrees more arc of fire than the classic method, making tight or wide arc of fire shots much easier.

For the technically inclined, with the classic or "neutral" technique (cammed forward) the wrist is not in "true neutral" it is actually in ulnar deviation, thus making true wrist flexion and extension ( in this case left to right) virtually impossible. It dictates a gun axis in line with the arm. With the *thumb rest [generic]* method and the wrist in true neutral, the gun does not have to be in line with arm and it allows free flexion and extension of wrist which translates to higher arc of fire for any given body position, ( and more rapid acquisition)

Oh, I see...

.

.

.

.

No, I don't see.

I know all the words but am having trouble putting them together so that they make sense to me.

If I search on "*thumb rest [generic]* method", will I find more? Oh, *thumb rest [generic]* as in Open Guns.

I am sorry if I made the explanation too technical, Here are the basics

Yes it's primarily open technique but can be adapted to Limited.

In a nutshell, in this particular scenario it allows the wrists to achieve a wider arc of fire.

Yes, if you google "*thumb rest [generic]* method", you should get an FAQ page on it.

[Shibby]

This is not a smart alec response. Shoot some IDPA. If you're not leaning when you use cover then you aren't doing it right.

Experiment with bending your knee on the side you are leaning into ...

+1

Right... instead of more, lean...use more bend in that knee.

Bending your knee will allow you to keep you upper body more upright. You can also flex the wrist opposite of your lean (leaning right, flex left wrist), to keep the gun upright.

[benos]

Depending on the barricade and the target placement, it seems like the goal would be to find a position to shoot from that would compromise your upper body index in as little way as possible.

be

[EDGE PILOT]

It's just that simple,well put brian.

[benos]

Thanks. It finally came to me after looking at this topic for a few days.

be

[Graham Smith]

Depending on the barricade and the target placement, it seems like the goal would be to find a position to shoot from that would compromise your upper body index in as little way as possible.

That sound simple, but it's not unless you are extremely supple. I cannot stand in one place and simply lean to the right far enough to shoot around anything thicker than a plywood barricade, and even then, I'm going to be off axis. To shoot around barrels, you have to be off angle and off axis at the same time.

Let me refer back to my original post for a moment; "So, I've now got to spend some time training on this but one thing I'm still not that clear on is how the point of aim changes. I know that I had the sights dead on some of those targets but I was shooting high, to the left, and to the right everywhere but where the targets were. I even managed to shoot a small popper that was hidden behind a larger one - no idea how I did that. I suppose I could just put up a bunch of targets and start blasting away, but it would be nice to approach this with some kind of plan in mind. "

My real question here is, when you are both off angle and off axis (e.g. body turned, knees bent,. leaning from the waist, arms bent. wrist twisted), does your point of aim actually change and if it does, how does it change and how do you correct for it?

[benos]

My real question here is, when you are both off angle and off axis (e.g. body turned, knees bent,. leaning from the waist, arms bent. wrist twisted), does your point of aim actually change and if it does, how does it change and how do you correct for it?

If your sights are not vertical, technically the POA will change slightly, but for most all targets you find in an IPSC stage, it is not enough to think about / compensate for. At maybe 25 yards and beyond, with the gun canted, it might be worth compensating for, depending on how hard the shot is. I think I remember, shooting around the left side of Bianchi barricade, at the 35 yard target, I'd hold maybe 2-3 inches to the right, and maybe 3-4 inches to the right, of the x ring. But, I hate to say it, but it's been so long since I shot it I can'r remember for sure.

I can't remember ever compensating my aim for even the most awkward lean around/cant position in an IPSC COF.

be

[Supermoto]

On position where I have to leave after I shoot. I try to get a low stance and bend the outside knee as much as possible. I always go in with the outside foot forward. On positions where I am ending on. I tend to get lazy and stand straighter upright, and lean out. In both cases, I keep the upper triangle the same as when I'm shooting normally, whenever I break that triangle I lose recoil control. I don't break my wrist or move my elbows to shoot around a barricade.

[Rob D]

Part of the problem is that shooting around things is not the sort of skills most people I practice on a regular basis.

I'd say that's your problem. Integrate leaning around things into your normal practice sessions and you'll get much better at it. In terms of exactly how to lean more effectively, my only advice would to stay low. It seems like I can lean further more comfortably when my whole body is lower to the ground.

[2alpha]

Shooting off balance magnifies any deficiencies in your depth of mastering the basics.

I humbly suggest being careful not to put too much emphasis in polishing the minutiae of your barricade techniques while compromising those basics.