Aloha Robert

I have shot both for about 15 years and am over 60 so I have the eye problems focusing on iron sights which can be accomadated with proper glasses. I think when you first get an Open you are thrilled with the speed and ease of accuracy. But there is a definite allure to iron sights and I go back and forth. I only get a chance to practice rarely so if it has been a while since shooting Ill take the Open gun. However I dont think you can beat iron sights for learning and relearning the fundamentals. For most of the guys like me that have long gaps between shooting we tend to "forget" some of the fundamentals so if I find myself making errors, I go back to the iron sights for refresher in fundamentals. Also if you ever need a handgun for personal protection, its like to have iron sights so you need to feel comfy using them if you find yourself in need of firearm for defense.

No one wants to repeal Newton's law BUT the nature of the beast allows for opposable grip (unlike the generic thumbrest) which greatly overpowers any theoretical yaw induced assymetric recoil. No matter how you slice it the gun wants to yaw, even if just from trigger pull. The beauty of the opposable grip is that it automatically compensates for that and any other yaw forces. PS I graduated with honors in Physics from Berkeley.

I have tried this. I even matched my 6" 40 to my 6".45 as close as possible, sights, weight, recoil(close but not exact). My own opinion, I think if done correctly any practice is better than no practice. And you can work on specific skills like watching front sight,trigger pull etc. But one of posters asked about the flow. For me the best stages in competition I have shot, I have no personal recollection of, even right after. I wondered if I had even engaged the targets. Those "zen" moments are sweet, but I think very hard to do unless the gun "disappears". If the gun is different than what you practice with, your mind is distracted by a lot of minor details and much harder to get into the flow. Perhaps the better shooters can make it happen with any gun but not me.

I like what Flex says about the magic of moving the gun around the course, and also teaching folks an athletic position with medicine ball. Also I have heard the technique of the instructor saying fight me as in getting into mock punching.

Diehli is mostly correct in answering Rusty surfer, except for difference in base size vs pad size. The "Duster" model is intended for direct mount to frame (via dust cover), as in a carry gun, and is available in a variety of base widths to accomadate different frame/slide geometries. The pad size (pedal size) is slightly smaller for carry purposes but pad size is specific to each model. To Clarify for USPSA, it would not be legal for limited. International IPSC has their own rule for fitting into box.

When I first read your post I thought about recommending reverse correction glasses(you are now reading left so it would make reading R and distance left). That is an option but most folks can not tolerate a monovision reversal without getting nauseated or dizzy, however if you can tolerate it, will give best results for iron sights shooting.. A wont work well because you wont get a sharp front sight focus. B will work better if you can do it but you will have to combine with C to get an "unatural" cross dominance which is hard as I explained like a R handed batter trying to learn lefty. If you try B or C read Ayoobs article on modifications of traditional stances or use a more modern technique that is easier to accomadate. The Best solution will of course be Red Dot. An even better solution is Red dot with correction of lens only on left to distance which should not give you nausea as you will go back to binocular vision even though focus will be fixed for distance, (infinity) OP has taught all of us a valuable lesson if we consider lasik monovision.

Actually what the OP is describing is not strictly cross dominance. That is a term for people who “naturally” shoot with primary vision opposite to dominant hand. I don’t know if there is a term “yet” who for surgical reasons have altered the near focus eye to opposite side and shoot that way. The medical term of art is monovision and most lasik that is done give the non dominant eye the close up correction which is opposite of what shooters want. And it is VERY hard to close to impossible to “learn” cross dominant technique. Kind of like a natural R hand batter trying to learn lefty. Some can do it but most cannot. However +s to Steve J for the references The Ayoob article http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_9_53/ai_n27320034/ summarizes how the various different shooting stances need to be modified for cross dominance. The Ayoob article does not cover all techniques as there are others that make it much easier to compensate for but that is another topic altogether.

All posters have had some good advice. I think we should hear from the mount manufacturer of that mount for guidance. Perhaps this is a problem others have had with this set up. I dont know the specifics in this case but if its the most rear (aft) screw that is breaking, the cause might be the mounting itself or installation problem. That particular design put a LOT of stress on the aft screw. I assume the manufacture has taken that into account but perhaps the wrong screw is not strong enough.

The Left Handed version question keeps coming up. It bothers me but I am sorry to say there is not a left handed version in the *thumb rest [generic]* brand at the current time. There are two problems in making a left handed version. 1) Time and money to change tooling. That could be overcome if we could figure out #2 2) There is a safety issue with left handed model. To truly use a *thumb rest [generic]* Method or some might loosely say Opposable grip method, the pad has to be far enough back. Unfortuneately the optimum spot for a lefty is uncomfortably close to the ejection port so the thumb might be burned or cut by the odd ejected round. One idea we had was a guard but that would slow the draw down. We are still scratching our heads on it. [edit]

I think this is a reasonable approach, for those who routinely shoot a lot of different pistols and especially for those that carry on duty. HOWEVER, we are talking about racing, and one should be open minded as to what the best technique is for racing if the goal is to win. One does not use the same techniques at the Indy 500 as driving on the street to the grocery. Those that limit themselves to everyday techniques will not do as well on the racetrack as the street. It's a very individual thing and those that want to shoot their raceguns like a street gun, I respect. But it's not a reason to limit those who want to go faster. I can't think of a single racing sport where the top guys use everyday techniques exclusively. For example try using even an "expert" ski with advanced recreational technique and the pro racing with a racing ski will beat you every time on the race course. You might leave him in the dust on a steep rutted rocky run, but he will cream you everytime on a race course.

Oh, I see... . . . . No, I don't see. I know all the words but am having trouble putting them together so that they make sense to me. If I search on "*thumb rest [generic]* method", will I find more? Oh, *thumb rest [generic]* as in Open Guns. I am sorry if I made the explanation too technical, Here are the basics Yes it's primarily open technique but can be adapted to Limited. In a nutshell, in this particular scenario it allows the wrists to achieve a wider arc of fire. Yes, if you google "*thumb rest [generic]* method", you should get an FAQ page on it.

I agree with Flex Money, bend your knee closest to Barricade. This is part of the "corkscrew" method popularized by Jerry Barnhart and others. However, this is one of the best scenarios for use of the *thumb rest [generic]*® method where it really shines, because you don’t have to have gun in line with arms. It allows the wrist to gain about 40 degrees more arc of fire than the classic method, making tight or wide arc of fire shots much easier. For the technically inclined, with the classic or “neutral” technique (cammed forward) the wrist is not in “true neutral” it is actually in ulnar deviation, thus making true wrist flexion and extension ( in this case left to right) virtually impossible. It dictates a gun axis in line with the arm. With the *thumb rest [generic]* method and the wrist in true neutral, the gun does not have to be in line with arm and it allows free flexion and extension of wrist which translates to higher arc of fire for any given body position, ( and more rapid acquisition)

I'm definitely with G-Man, why? Safety Alert! I think that is one of last places I would want to take away meat. The SC is a HIGH pressure cartridge, and that is one of the highest pressure and stressed metal parts of the gun. If you really dig the fluted look, flute the barrel more towards the muzzle and harmonize the design with the slide cutouts. That looks cool and reduces swing weight without as much hazard.

This quote really tickles me because, in my view, it's very hard to have a "living hand" with classic or neutral technique. It's unatural use of muscles and leverage will ALLWAYS make this an issue to be dealt with someway, some how. With the *thumb rest [generic]* method, the hand is in a natural or "living" position and there is no "fighting", the gun because it's a natural position. Everything happens automatically and you can shift your "awareness" to other areas.

I cant comment on whether OP's product is good or not. At our shop we use ceratkote add a couple of tweaks and call our process Lava Shield but it is basically Cerakote. Our experience with Cerakote has been excellent and very tolerant to wear and harsh enviroments. One thing on process OP described, I would strongly recommend a strong solvent bath rather than hot soapy water, Any grease or lubicrant remaining in nooks and crannys or adhered to meteal "pores" can damage the bonding process of any coating. You get superior results by baking rather than air drying, although some parts like certain plastics dont take heat well. One of posters said application of cerakote is easy. Yes and no. It's not hard but there are quite few little tricks and some colors are much easier to work with than other. And speaking of colors, Cerakote has recently come out with new colors so there are lots of choices.

I love G Mans post, kind of says it all. Whatever you choose, you will be lucky indeed if you stay with it. As you spend more trigger time with an Open Gun some things will be more important to you. I kind of tend to agree especially for beginners, .38 Super Comp is more flexible than 9 Major. I think as a rule of thumb, some better shooters will like the quickness of a shorter gun but unless you are A or above a slightly heavier 5 gun is easier to shoot the tough accuracy shots. You might also consider a lightly used Open gun that works well. The posters are right a custom gun takes a long time to get. On my first custom gun, I hardly knew what I really wanted. Once you decide on a Gunsmith, let him suggest the recipe of parts, slide weights, comps barrel etc. as he likely has the experience of what works for him. I think generally you get a poorer result by specifying all the parts yourself ala carte unless you REALLY know how they have played together before. I cant recommend a gunsmith except to say the Gun Benny Hill made for me in 1998 still works perfectly (after LOTS of rounds), wish I could say the same for all guns I have had since..

Thanks so much Jim, I have not tried those great tips yet. I knew about recoil spring binding which is why I tried a few different ones that I had deburred including a 16# one but I didnt know about the rotation part. Good Info. Ill try to get on that next week,

I am having same problem as OP, failure to extract (Stove pipe) about once every hundred rounds. The Gun runs perfect otherwise shoots very sweet. I have Aftecs on other guns without problem. Feeding is good with tuned mags. Most of time shells come out with super velocity landing about 20 feet away mostly straight horizontal, Some seem to arc more downward and then the occaisionally stovepipe. I am running standard Serendipidy and have had ejection port lowered as much as possible. (Running 4 1/4" shorty at 175 power factor with lightened slide) I have reworked ALL the parts relevant myself and tried various angles and configs on ejector and tried all different kinds of lengths of ejector. Then I sent Gun to two different very competent Gunsmiths who tuned all the components including ejector, extractor hook and firing pin stop. Still got the same problem. Have also tried with different recoil springs, with and without shock buff and different lubes. Also played arround with Aftec spring tension. I dont think weak loads are problem because when I Chrono I get very little standard deviation and I am very careful when reloading. I am absolutely certain my thumb does not touch slide as my grip makes that impossible. Doesn't make any differeance with virgin or previously fired Supercomp Brass I'm stumped, any ideas?

There are some good pics on this thread. IMHO to get the most out of the *thumb rest [generic]* grip and method the Pedal should be mounted as far back as possible aft of slide axis. There is a pic of this grip method on http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=111063&st=25 My post of Aug 6 and it shows the hand position. Most shooters will start with the pedal mounted more forward ala the thumb rest method but if you are brave and want to try something totally different you get a lot more mechanical advantage when mounted aft.

OK, so for Production shooters, what kind(s) of hand/forearm strengthening exercises do you recommend? Per dynamometer, my grip is 95-100# bilaterally. I can almost close the Trainer; I suspect some of the limitation is the size of my hands (size 6-6.5 surgical gloves). However, there is still some issue with recoil management in the left hand. Open for workable suggestions. I'm already working with baoding balls for dexterity and with various rubber bands/tubing for extensor strength. I have access to various free weights. Thanks much! For production, use the same exercises as for limited. If you can do 100# with a grip meter that is pretty good and probably plenty of strength for production. If you have a numerical grip meter here is something I strongly advise all shooters to try. First find your maximum number of pounds you can grip with non dominant hand and 100# is pretty good for a strong male. THEN, don’t use your thumb and squeeze as hard as you can and you will see the pound number drop dramatically. THEN, put your non dominant hand in the shooting position, cammed forward (medical term of art is ulnar deviation of wrist) and without the thumb see what number you can achieve. You will be amazed that if you start at 100# you will end up at about 15 to 20 # and that all you can use for shooting (at maximum effort). It’s also one reason why it is so hard to “get a grip” with traditional grip method. You cant use 100 % of 20# all the time so it is even less that you have to work with for most shots. And this is also one reason why you have to do a bunch of other stuff to control recoil. On a completely different note, the posters have mentioned many fine products. One of my favorites is the Gripmaster ®. The reason is you can squeeze each finger individually. And the best part is there is a plastic rail on top with post and notch sight so you can see if the “sight” moves when you squeeze with thumb, middle, ring, and pinky, then you can see if “sight” moves when you add the index (trigger finger) squeeze. This exercise will dramatically prove to you it is very difficult to nearly impossible to have precise trigger control when you have a maximum grip with dominant hand.

As a sports medical physician I want to weigh in and point out some things. For those that shoot limited and or use the classic, thumbs forward technique in open, there is no doubt that strength training of the hand (and fore arm) muscles help with shooting performance. And I think all of the devices and methods mentioned in this thread work to a helpful degree. HOWEVER, the use of the methods described, strengthen “grip” or opposable muscles of the hand. In the classic method of shooting, this natural opposable grip is NOT used and the thumb is not used. So yes, they do strengthen the hand but NOT in the manner most folks grip the gun. There is some spill over to other forearm muscles that are used in classic method which, is what helps manage recoil and are trained when using opposable grip trainers. In Brian’s language of awareness of the “set” of feelings with grip, the “set” is considerably different with the trainers than with actual “set” management of recoil. So there is some muscle memory retraining , or different memories from grip training to shooting. For those that shoot Open, the “set” of feeling with grip trainers is almost identical to those used in the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method. So grip trainers have more muscle memory specificity as applied to the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method. But here is the real advantage of the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method. NO increase of normal everyday strength is required to get superior recoil management using the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method. Mechanical advantage is so much higher than even small folks with weak hands can effectively manage recoil and flip.

A Few quick answers, Sorry, there is no Left handed version yet, possibly in future. Currently USPSA rules do not allow a *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip or any thumb rest for that matter in Limited. They are allowed in International Standard but must fit in box so *thumb rest [generic]* ® might have to be modified for International use. It can be put on a non competition 1911/2011 gun but it requires a spacer to clear the slide release. Basically, the *thumb rest [generic]* ® as currently designed is for Open competition. The GoGun *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip is designed, invented and made in the USA. Thanks to TimE for kind words. He and bunch of folks (including Ari) worked very hard to put on a terrific Area One match so it does not surprise me, TimE has no time for practice, but he told me he had one of the best matches he ever shot with just putting the Pedal on and shooting the match. That is the type of comment I hear frequently from those that like the concept.

WoW! I am impressed with Aristotle’s comprehensive review. He figured out a lot of stuff on his own and the videos are terrific, fast and very little gun movement in recoil of any kind. And Ari is right that he figured it out on his own with a very powerful tool, his open mind. Just to clear up a few things. The DAA product is a very fine product but it is a Thumb rest and difficult to use the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method with. Mozee observed the position is different and that is only one of the many differences. In order to get the most leverage and be able to get 2 axis 180 degree control the Thumb device needs to mounted farther back preferably aft of slide axis. In a nutshell, there are fine products out there is you want to “rest” your thumb, but the only one I am aware of that makes the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method work easily is the the *thumb rest [generic]* ® part. Also Aristotle figured out another of the qualities differentiating the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method not often mentioned, as part of the 2 axis control, natural gripping motion allows the non dominant 3, 4 and 5 fingers to get substantial pressure which stabilizes yaw or windage. This effect is hard to achieve with most Thumb Rests because of their size and shape. But it is one of the features that eliminates steering induced error common in other thumb rest type products Also about modifications, the *thumb rest [generic]* ® part requires no modifications and can be shot very well as a simple bolt on. Aristotle did some very creative mods to his but I don’t think it affected basic function. Actually I have seen other racers do all kinds of mods to it. One of the reasons it was made SO battle tough and out of solid aluminium is that is was anticipated some folks would want to do some milling of their own and keep the piece is still strong. Sounds like Aristotle has the grip working good, Ari have you tried working on the draw yet? Once you understand the grip, you can practice the draw and pick up a little speed and with consistency in grip. When you draw, the nondomiant thumb finds the *thumb rest [generic]* ® first ( and since its big, it’s easy to find and the shape of the Pedal automatically finds the right spot), then you have a natural grasp motion which automatically put your hand in perfect grip everytime.

Just to review, because I think folks might be mixing numbers a bit. As I posted on May 2, absolute number of diopters is not the key thing. For Open, both eyes corrected to whatever is your distant vission. For Limited (that want to shoot with both eyes open), this is what I said "Useful adds are between about +1 and +2.5. Less than 1 doesnt help much, more than 2.5 difference in left and right eyes make steroscopic vision difficult" The absolute number is not as important as the difference between the two eyes. (the add) What I am reminding shooters is when they go to their optometrist, if they are shooting limited, and need reading glass, the magic words are add diopters (to the dominant eye that will "see" the front sight) and the non dominant eye sees distance; that is if you want to shoot limited with both eyes open.

I think Pat is very astute. I did not mean to imply his conclusion was erroneous because of whether or not the hand comes off the gun. It doesn’t, but the main point I would like to correct is the notion that this technique causes steering or yawing or windage or whatever term of art you choose. It simply DOES NOT. In fact because of the nature of the natural grip AND the natural opposing grip of the non dominant fingers, yawing or steering is REDUCED. Pat’s misconception is very common and not to be faulted, especially with those that have tried to apply the neutral grip method with a thumbrest, not a *thumb rest [generic]* ® method. Pat is right that frequently the thumb can cause yawing with a neutral or classic technique. This concept if applied to most thumrests has in fact yielded the steering problem Pat is aware of and repeating. BUT because of way the *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip is designed it eliminates that problem AND allows the hand to use natural grip muscles to just about get 2 axis 180 degree control. If griped correctly it actually stabilizes yaw or windage as well as flip. I think those interested should definitely read the full post of his conversation with BE as it talks about how to transition into the “perfect” draw and what to do if your grip is not “perfect”. I LOVE the way Brian puts the "perfect" adjective in quotes because it makes it much more applicable to any “perfect” grip that is “perfect” for that individual. I think those that are willing to try something different will find the mechanics of getting the “perfect” grip MUCH simpler with the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method. (if it is “perfect” for them). And I just love BE quote about making it a "feeling". I would dare to go one better, a "feeling" you don't have to think about.