Feeler: WWII USGI 3-gun

[dcloudy777]

While dodging rogue golf carts at the PanAm this weekend, I did some thinking about a 3-gun match using USGI period weapons from the WWII era, namely the M1 Garand, M1 Carbine (instead of a shotgun), and 1911 pistol. Most of us have at least one of each of these, and if you don't you should. I think it would be a really fun match for the 3-gun crowd, and might be a great way to "reach out" to the CMP community and other "square range" disciplines such as High Power. I propose IMGA scoring (8-round en-bloc clips would really "encourage" A-zone hits), and I've thrown together equipment rules. I'm thinking two divisions, Issue, which is intended to use equipment very close to WWII-era USGI, and Modified, to include synthetic stocks, .308-converted Garands, fiberoptic sights, 30-round Carbine mags, "modernized" 1911s, etc. Here's what I came up with, the measurement numbers will need to be tweaked, as I was just going off the top of me head:

Equipment, ISSUE class:

Rifle: Must be an M1 Garand pattern rifle chambered in .30-06 Springfield. Ammunition must be loaded using 8-round en-bloc clips. The stock of the rifle must be made of wood, and be of USGI configuration. Rifle slings, if used, must be of the 2-point USGI web type and may only be attached to the rifle using the original attachment hardware. Sights must be of USGI pattern, these sights may be painted/blackened, but may not be modified in any other way. Internal modifications such as barrel bedding or trigger work are allowed. External modifications that alter the gun from USGI configuration is not allowed.

Carbine: Must be an M1 Carbine pattern gun chambered in .30 Carbine. Magazines may hold no more than 15 rounds. The stock of the rifle must be made of wood, and be of USGI configuration. Rifle slings, if used, must be of the 2-point USGI web type and may only be attached to the rifle using the original attachment hardware. Sights must be of USGI pattern, these sights may be painted/blackened, but may not be modified in any other way. Internal modifications such as barrel bedding or trigger work are allowed. External modifications that alter the gun from USGI configuration is not allowed.

Pistol: Must be a 1911-pattern pistol chambered in .45ACP. Magazines may hold no more than 7 rounds. External modifications will be limited to the following:

Grips: May be changed, provided the grips are of the same shape as USGI grips and do not add more than 1 ounce to the weight of the pistol.

Mainspring Housing: May be changed provided that the mainspring housing is of either “flat” or “arched” configuration. Mainspring housings that incorporate USGI-type lanyard loops or allowed.

Sights: Sights must be of the “notch and post” variety. Both front and rear sight must be of fixed, monolithic construction, and may protrude no higher than ¼ inch from the top of the slide. Sights may be painted or blackened.

Other: Ejection ports may be lowered and flared. Undercut trigger guards are allowed. Magazine openings may be beveled, but the magazine opening cannot be made wider.

Equipment, MODIFIED class:

Rifle: Must be an M1 Garand pattern gun chambered in a.30 caliber cartridge. Ammunition must be loaded using en-bloc clips holding no more than 8 rounds. Optical or electronic sights are not allowed. Modifications are allowed provided that safety devices are not disabled, overall length of the gun does not exceed 47 inches, and the empty weight of the gun does not exceed 13 pounds.

Carbine: Must be an M1 Carbine pattern rifle chambered in .30 Carbine. Magazines may hold no more than 30 rounds. Optical or electronic sights are not allowed. Modifications are allowed provided that safety devices are not disabled, overall length of the gun does not exceed 39 inches, and the empty weight of the gun does not exceed 8 pounds.

Pistol: Must be a 1911 pattern pistol chambered in .45 ACP. Magazines may hold no more than 8 rounds. Optical or electronic sights are not allowed. Porting, compensators, or muzzle brakes are not allowed. Modifications are allowed provided that safety devices are not disabled, overall length of the gun does not exceed 9 inches, the height of the gun does not exceed 7 inches, and the empty weight of the gun does not exceed 3 pounds.

So what do you think? Sound like fun? Perhaps more importantly, does it sound like something we could get 100 shooters to come to? Any input would be appreciated.

DanO

[Bryan 45]

I think it would be a blast, but then my other shooting interest is military weapons. I tried to put on a WWII D-Day side match a few years ago at our pistol club. We had about 60 shooters any given match, and even with a months notice, I think we had about 7 guys shoot the side match.

I'd be in- schedule permitting. But, the tight restrictions on equipment is going to limit your competitors. It's hard to get 15 guys shooting any kind of irons at a 3 gun match.

Have it at Rock Castle and I'm there. I'd shoot a Top Shot 3 gun at Rock Castle using slingshot, crossbow, and throwing knife!

[Jadeslade]

I like the idea, but I think that the equipment is a little restrictive. Many shooters just don't have that many 7 round .45 mags any more, the ones that do probably don't want to take them outside. I like the idea very much and agree it might appeal to the CMP shooters.

[Mike P]

Why not open it up some on equipment, I mean the Springfieds were still in use then too, and even Enfields. How about some Allied weapons, could you allow jungle carbines in place of .30 cal carbines?

[jar]

Sounds like fun to me. I probably wouldn't make the trip to TN, but if someone put on one of these within a day's drive of me I'd shoot it. I'd have to shoot modified unless I bought a 1911 with GI style sights. I think most people would be in this situation. I'd venture to say that most M1s (both Garands and Carbines) out there are in GI configuration, and obviously most 1911s are not.

[sierra77mk]

I looked at starting and "ACTION BATTLE RIFLE" match a couple of times a year at our club.

What I found was a a lot of "that sounds cool" but also a lot of people who did not want to "shoot out" their M1's by shooting them hard and hot.

At our CMP garand shoots we are lucky to get 12-15 shooters from a 1000 member club.

Some of them are non-members.

I think if you opened it up to axis weapons to allow 9mm's [high powers/p-38's]

and keep pump shotguns with bead sights and wooden stocks/ no side saddles etc. you might have more interest.

How about web gear? Lots of guys have those weapons but don't have ammo belts/pouches...

Distance would play a part too. It's such a waste of a 30 caliber to shoot anything less than 200yds but greater than 300 can get rough unless you have young eyes and/or big targets.

Look at the rules for http://www.zootshooters.com/. They require period weapons AND period TECHNIQUE. One hand on the handgun etc...

I think you might put out feelers to reenacter groups to get an idea of who might be willing to travel for a match like this. A lot of these guys have all the equipment but don't have the opportunity to shoot much and love the opportunity to shoot beyond 50 yards.

[Scout454]

There is no reason not to use shotguns. They were certainly available and used to good effect by the Marines and no doubt the Army used them too.

[ajg308]

Shotguns would be a good addition. Also you should have a Foreign division. This would allow shooters/collectors of axis and allies to compete. Mausers, Enfields, Lugers, sweet!

Heck, maybe the divisions could be axis and allies?

[bofe954]

Maybe just limit rifle to wood stock and 8 round cap? You'd allow all the foreign stuff, and a race between reloading a M1A loaded to 8 vs a garand loaded to 8 may well go to the garand anyway. It would sort of encourage the garand without forcing it.

I think you'd have pretty limited participation though. You'd be limiting it 3 gunners, then 3 gunners with the specific equipment you want, then limiting to that specific day.

How about a regular match with a prize for the guy who shoots best with that stuff? The carbine vs shotgun would be an advantage depending how you set it up...

[twodownzero]

Local outlaw 3-gun has a "Heavy Metal Military Arms" category. I believe bolt action is allowed, as is a Garand or M14.

I've considered taking my Garand and shooting with the big boys at some point, but it just hasn't happened

[latewatch]

Sounds great to me. I would be in favor of pump shotguns instead of carbines though.

[dcloudy777]

Thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate the opportunity to "brainstorm" this. Upon reading all of the comments, some additional thoughts / responses to some concerns:

Definitely think a "bolt action" military rifle class (sub-class of Issue class) would be in order. Mausers, Springfields, Nagants, Carcanos, SMLEs (limited to 5 rounds in the gun and loaded from clips only), etc. I think most of the rifle shots would be longer ranges, with most of the "CQB hoser" type targets to be engaged with the carbine.

Shotguns: This was one of the first things I thought about when fleshing out the WWII 3-gun concept. I realize that shotguns such as the model 12 and 1897 were used throughout the war, but there just aren't too many of them around nowadays compared to the proliferation of Garands and carbines. The Modern division allows updated versions of the 1911 pistol, but to allow "updated versions" of WWII shotguns would basically allow any modern pump gun in. There just hasn't been much progress made (or needed) in the pump shotgun in the last 50-60 years. A period-correct shotgun might make an excellent "stage gun" however.

Pistols: I would tweak the Issue class rules, 8 round magazines are allowed, but can only be loaded with 7 rounds and can be no longer than the USGI 7 round magazine (no basepads). I never intended to allow only 7 round mags, I just didn't write the rule well enough. I've also considered allowing foreign WWII-issue pistols in, possibly in the "Issue/Bolt rifle" class provided they match the country or origin of the rifle. Again the Anglophiles would get hosed, as their Hi-powers would have to be capacity-limited.

Carbines: Thinking about allowing semi-auto versions (or legal full-auto fired semi only) of period submachineguns such as Thompsons, Stens, etc.

Issue class , and the resulting equipment parity, would allow a shooter that doesn't own or want to use his/her own guns to be just as competitive with a "loaner set" of weapons and ammo. Competitive advantage gained through equipment should be practically nil, so a competitor, for a fee, could be "issued" one or more of the weapons/ammo needed for the match. The CMP could be instrumental in this, I would love to see them bring up a few dozen guns, "rent" them to shooters for the match, and give the shooter the option to buy them from CMP at the end. I think it would be great for the CMP as well.

Any other thoughts/comments/suggestions? If we (the 3-gun community) can put together a workable concept, my next step is to reach out the the CMP community in a major way. I think both groups could benefit greatly from a match like this.

DanO

[davidwiz]

A lot of people aren't legally allowed to own a M1 Carbine, due to state laws, such as NJ. You'd be leaving out a lot of people if you mandate a M1 Carbine.

[SinistralRifleman]

We're running a WW2 Themed match at AZ ACTS this month: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=111143

The stages will all be based on WW2 events, with special categories for WW2 rifle and WW2 sub-machine gun with modified scoring for both divisions. Modern equipment can still compete, but the round count will be twice as much as it will be for WW2 rifles.

I would leave shotguns out of a WW2 themed match, it makes it much simpler as repros and genuine WW2 or earlier shotguns are not entirely common.

The 3 divisions I would recommend for an all WW2 match would be:

Bolt Rifle: Any service issued bolt action

Semi-Auto Rifle: Any semi auto issued rifle

Subgun: Any semi or full auto issued pistol caliber and only prohibit full auto if its against the range rules for some reason.

Edited August 3, 2010 by SinistralRifleman

[Mike P]

Why not just make it heads up. Use whatever equipment you want but it'd need to match. No need to download mags or other such playing field leveling junk. Drag out the old stuff and wring it out.

[atomicferret]

I have always wanted to put on a Chosin Reservoir match. All equipment used would have to be in common use before Dec, 1950. I think i would have it be a 2 gun match. 1 rifle or carbine and 1 handgun.

Rifleman Class - Any Semi auto rifle (garand, gewehr 43, etc..) + handgun

Infantry class - bolt action rifle (Mosin Nagant, 1903, etc) + handgun

Assaulter class - carbine/sub gun (ppsh 41, M1 carbine, etc) + handgun