Minor vs. Major

[Nik Habicht]

I'm starting this thread so that the USPSA and Marketing thread can return to its topic.  There has been some debate about the major/minor scoring difference and whether it should exist and what it really signifies.  I haven't been around USPSA long enough to know the historical basis for the origin of two different power factors.  

Personally I like the difference in Limited/Lim10.  I know from personal experience that I can shoot faster with a 9 than I can with a .45.  If there were no power factor difference, everyone would be shooting a 9 mm in Limited.  I like having the choice.  I'm happy that Production was created as a minor only division --- I think that it's entry level friendly. I like that there are significantly different divisions in USPSA ---- I'll be shooting one of the Area 8 matches in Production this year.  

In IDPA it seems that the only reason that the Enhanced Service Pistol Division was created was to keep the 1911 and Browning Hi-Power shooters from terrorizing the shooters in Stock Service Pistol.  And there's a power factor difference in IDPA too --- if you want to compete in CDP you must shoot major.  I applaud David Sevigny for winning the IDPA 2001 Nationals, but he beat Rob Leatham by 3/100th of a second.  Considering that Leatham had to make major, is the outcome of that match indicative of who the better shooter is, or did the scoring system fail?  According to IDPA rules Sevigny and Leatham did not compete head to head as there is no such thing as an overall match winner.

What are your thoughts?

[JZELEK]

Good post Nik!

Question? Why does everyone seem to Have this

preconseption that production is for new or inexperienced shooters. Alot of production shooters are former open or limited shooters that got tired of the arms race and just went back to basics. It would be nice if these shooters could compete on an even playing field for overall score (which is what the game is really about)  but this minor scoring rule is attached like a ball and chain.

What are your thoughts?

[Nik Habicht]

My take is that Production should stay minor.  To win, you can't afford to miss.  We have a GM shooting locally, who is a Master Class Production shooter. (His % in Production classifiers is between 85 and 95 %.)  It really doesn't matter whether he shoots Limited (where he's a GM), Open, or Production, he's a force to be reckoned with.  Now that's not to say that he beats the open shooters overall.  We've got a pretty tough crowd shooting in the area.  But I still think that it comes down to the shooter.  And I still think that Rob Leatham is a better shooter than David Sevigny.  (And that opinion is based on more than just the IDPA Nationals)  That's not to say that Sevigny won't overtake Leatham at some point.  (Maybe when TGO qualifies for Super Senior......)  If burned out Open or Limited shopoters want to shoot production, more power to them!  Hopefully they'll enjoy the challenge.  But yes, I do see Production as a great way to start out in IPSC.  You can shoot it with whatever gun you own.  Now if they'd just restrict L10 to singlestacks only, as the entrylevel class for 1911s, I'd be a very happy guy.  

O.K., last point.  If overall score is really what the game is all about, how come I see one or tow revolver shooters at almost every match?  Why do I see L10 competitors with singlestacks?  Their reloads would be faster with an autoloader (Revolver competitors) or a widebody racegun.  Could it be that these competitors enjoy the diversity of the sport and are competing for High (insert the name of the division here) against others of their inclination?

[Chriss Grube]

Nik,

I think a lot of this could be solved if everybody would just grow the hell up and act like adults. You compete against the people in your division, PERIOD. If you chose to bring a revolver, production gun or whatever, don't bitch that the scoring or course design isn't friendily to what you brought. You're shooting against that division and everybody in that division has to deal with the same thing! I'm sick and tired of hearing whiny assed shooters saying this isn't fair to me. If you want to shoot your revolver against the open guns then sign up for open. It is perfectly legal! Everybody asks why is this sport dying, because we have a bunch of damn whiners. Bring the gun you want shoot safe, fast, play by the rules and quitting worrying about the stuff that doesn't matter. This sport is supposed to be fun, If I wanted to deal with crybabies I'd go to work and get paid for it!

[Shooter Grrl]

Amen Brother Chriss!!!!!!

[Nik Habicht]

Chriss,

I think we're on the same page.  However I'd like to hear from dissenters too, if anyone cares to make a cogent argument.

[Rich Bagoly]

So what is the point of the 9mm power floor?

Why not allow .22's, or airsoft?

Why have movement, or factor time into the score?

I like Major power factor.  I liked it better at 175.

The challenge is to shoot a real gun, with real ammo.  Why take that away?

[JZELEK]

Listen, you guys aren't getting this!

what I'm saying is that we don't get rid of the power factors for the classes. Leave them, Just don't score minor power lesser points on the target for hits out of the A zone! If a person say in open fails to meet the 165 power factor at a match that persons score shouldn't count or that person should be DQ'd. The same goes for production if you don't meet the 125 power factor.

Also its pretty sad that some people think that  

production only seems to draw in newbies or washed up older shooters.

Help me with this one, if you don't like something in this sport your automatically labeled a whiner or crybaby.

Pease! No name calling were better than that!

[Flexmoney]

JZELEK,

I'm not gettint it either.

Scoring minor hits the same as major would be easier...and would give an easy comparison to the major shooters.

Is that your reasoning?

I think that kinda waters down any "practical" aspects that we have left.  It wouldn't work in any other class except for production either, right?

[Rich Bagoly]

This one really escapes me.  If minor scores the same as major, why would anyone claim major?  

Forget about the "practical" aspects.

This gun shoots major.  It is a little harder to shoot fast, and gets a small advantage in scoring because of that.

This gun shoots minor.  It is easier to shoot fast.  You can score the same as major if you are supremely accurate.

I like choices.

Would it be an improvement to reduce the "advantage" of scoring major?

[Chriss Grube]

Ok we score everything as major. Calibrate the steel to fall at a 125 PF. Welcome to the new arms race! Everybody will sell the .40 and supers, build a 9mm. Why shoot something that kicks harded or is more expensive to load. Great I save money on ammo. Everybody is happy especially the Gunsmiths. Then we have people whining because the limited guy just beat the open guys. This is a sport, the practical aspect is the gun handling skills you learn not the ammo you shoot. I'll give that a JHP at 1150 is more effective fight stopper than a FMJ at 1400. What next you're shooting Hydra-shoks so you only need 1150 to score major, I'm shooting FMJ so I need 1400? Major/Minor makes a difference in most divisions. In open it doesn't really matter. You can tune and build an open gun to work at most PFs.

[JZELEK]

No,  there wouldn't be a new arms race because the only guns allowed in production are double action factory stock pistols holding only 10 rounds in the magazines. People wouldn't give up there High capacity single action pistols to go shoot in this catagory, but because the scoring would now be the same people wouldn't  feel that their being penalized for not shooting open, limited or limited 10  to get the advantage of major vs minor scoring out of the A zone.

Also revolver shooters, who I think are scored minor, would also benefit from this change.

Wouldn't this make everyone happy?

[midvalleyshooter]

Originaly five rounds of ball ammo were fired through a Commander at a ballistic pendulum or over a chrono, you had to match or exceed that to make major. Now we have the 165 power factor which is weaker than major once was.

The roots of major/minor scoring is based on a bullets supposed effects on living tissue. But we are discussing a game so why should power factor matter?

I have shot open blasters, 50 oz limited guns and S_I's with long dust covers. Open guns are loud and push hard, but they shoot flat. The limited guns don't flip much either when loaded with the 40 at 165.

My suggestion is this: Score production as major if you want the masses to compete with their stock pistols.

Humor mode on.............

I can see a new shooter with their Sig, Glock or whatever being told by an RO, "Your C and D hits count for less than our C and D hits. You see little newbewannabe (or old tired shooter who now shoots production, you must first shoot a open/limited pistol if you wish to partake of the high and mighty MAJOR scoring advantage." "And by the way if you have the gall to suggest anything different I will label you a whiner!"

Lighten up, smile,

Keith

[bgary]

If I understand JZELEK correctly, what he is saying is *not* to get rid of the power-factors, but to make it so if you don't make your declared power factor, your hits don't count.  So, if you declare Major and your chrono results don't make 165, your hits don't count.

Very early (85? 86?) in our sport, failing to make declared power factor was a DQ.  People apparently didn't like that.  Hence the current rule that if you don't make major, you to minor; if you don't make minor, then you drop to no-score.

Bruce

bruce.gary@verizon.net

[Shooter Grrl]

Actually Bruce, I think he's trying to say that Production should all be scored as Major instead of all as Minor so that those in that division don't PERCEIVE that they're being penalized for their "stock" guns.

As far as I can tell, it's ONLY Production that he wants changed - did I get it right JZ?

I don't agree - but I understand what he is saying.  JZ my response is that Production shoots against Production, period.  Everyone in that division is scored the same, so I'm unclear where this "penalty" perception would come from.

[EricW]

Talk about much ado about nothing.  I think someone doesn't get the scoring system here.  Production shoots against Production.  Period.  It doesn't make a damn bit of difference if a B hit is scored as 3, 4, 5, or 20.  Everybody is getting scored the same way - so it just doesn't matter one iota.  

It's difficult to fathom how the Power Factor rules can be considered "unfair," especially with regards to competing in Production.  I

It's a game.  It has rules.  Get over it.  

[Nik Habicht]

Kathy,

If I read one of JZelek's earlier posts correctly, his perceived penalty of minor scoring in Production, relates to his comment that overall score is what the game  (USPSA) is all about.  If that's the case, he's arguing that Production shooters as a group are penalized by the minor scoring.  (I.E. if only Production was scored as major then a production shooter place higher in the overall standings.)  If I don't have that right, feel free to correct me.

I don't think it makes a difference in any event.  Because I shoot an auto, I'm almost always gonna have a higher hit factor on a stage than a revolver shooter of comparable skill.  And I bet that if The (entire) Super Squad decided to shoot the Limited Nationals with Production Guns scoring minor, that the results at the end of the match would be pretty similar to what they are most years.  Yeah, they might get beat by a few exceptional masters..... but they might not.  I still think that it's largely the skill and experience and the performance of the shooter, not whether scoring is minor/major that determines match standing.  That said, who wants to take on TGO in Production?

[Shooter Grrl]

Oh - I understand what he's saying, but I still don't understand WHY he thinks that way then.  We have 5 SEPARATE DIVISIONS in USPSA and they do not, will not, should not and all the other NOTS compete against each other!  If he wants to see how he stacks up against an Open gun, then PLAY with an Open gun by  the Open Division Rules.  Production only counts against Production, Limited against Limited, etc...

I'm sorry, I just don't get it :-(

[midvalleyshooter]

Just for the sake of discussion I cruised around the web looking at a few USPSA club match results. I could not find one that did not include overall results in some form. People look at the overall results.

What's not to understand about the scoring issue?Here's a hint: YOU ARE NOT SHOOTING MAJOR ANYMORE Major/minor scoring is phony due to reduced power factor and gamester guns. If you want to experience major get a stock 1911 and shoot some ball ammo or a Glock 22 and shoot some defensive ammo

So if USPSA wants Production to grow why not drop the major/minor? Why score minor for production? Give the newbies and old,tired, broken down shooters who shoot stock guns the major points. They are not going to win anyway If its a separate class why should it matter?

Keith

[PaulW]

You just siad it "Why should it matter?"

[midvalleyshooter]

I also said "score Production as major." Is that golden also??? Yikes I gotta go to work

Keith

[ErikW]

One reason to score Production as Minor only is it puts more emphasis on accuracy. One of the tired old criticisms of our sport is that is has too much emphasis on speed, too little on accuracy. That changes in Production (and Revolver?), a division that should appeal to many of those critics.

Keith and J, the only valid reason to score Production as Major is to de-emphasize accuracy. Everybody in Production competes against everybody else in Production, but nobody else. If you want to be compared to somebody not in Production, enter yourself in their division.

Personally, I would like to see Minor and Major scoring as follows:

Major A=5, B=4, C=3, D=2

Minor A=5, B=3, C=2, D=1

This would ensure you couldn't just spray a bunch of Cs everywhere and win the stage with a nice hit factor.

(Why the higher scoring B? Because the upper A/B zone is a difficult area to hit and it is often used in hardcovered targets. Its difficulty means it should score more than that huge C zone! The IDPA target recognizes it the same as the A zone.)

[cpty1]

I agree Erik.  I've never understood why the B and C zone scored the same from a point perspective.

[PaulW]

"What does it matter"  echos through the valley......

[Jack T]

Greetings all,

Back to the origin of why we have different scoring for Major/Minor.

I am going to be telling my age on this one, but I don't feel old.

The origin of the sport goes back to Combat Shooting.  We didn't have very high tech equipment back then, it was pretty much stock 1911's and wheel guns.  It was not a recoil issue it was what was and sometimes still refered to as potential stopping power.  (I don't want to discuss stopping power on this thread, I don't think it would be appropriate)

The  .45 ACP (major) was considered to have more stopping power than the lesser 9mm/38's etc. (minor), so it was determined that it should score higher than the others.  If that sounds preferential treatment for one cartridge over another, it was.  That was our thinking during that time and I was just as guilty (and ignorant) as anybody else.  The .45 single stack was the king of the hill.

Latter

PS:  It all comes down to shot placement. Damn, I tried but I couldn't restrain myself.

NOTE:  For clarification, both major and minor were considered to do the same damage with a center mass hit, but it was believed that the .45 would do more damage outside the vital area (c/d zone) than the 9mm/38.

 

(Edited by Jack T at 5:26 pm on Feb. 4, 2002)

(Edited by Jack T at 5:30 pm on Feb. 4, 2002)