Moving the 2011 into the digital age.

[Carmine]

Hi guy's just wondering about joining up my two favorite sports.

I spend alot of time at IPSC matches and also at my local Paintball fields.

Here's the question that I have.

I use markers that have OLED displays as to show and control the guns' function...they also have timer functions and par set time functions....I think you can see where I'm going.

Can you imagine an SV/ST grip that had a colour OLED display and the same functions as your favorite timer!

Now that is something I want to see.

Given the small size of these circuits and displays you might not even notice their addition.

If you have a chance take a look at what's going on in other "games" as far as design,finnish and technology.

Personaly I use my Angel A1 almost as much as my STI Eagle and Edge.

Just sayn'

Ciao.

[Vlad]

My gut feeling is that you can hang whatever you want on toys, but on weapons you only hang only the bare minimum necessities. The last thing you want is another thing to break. Of course, for some people 2011's are toys, just not for me.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Vlad

[MTBfarms]

Frequency brodcasting electronics on firearms. the FCC would stick their noses into firearms so fast we wouldent know what hit us.

IMHO

[DocMedic]

While I see were you're going with it, it will never happen, at least not with handguns. No matter how complicated a E-Marker for paint-ball is, they all do one thing in common, On and Off signals. Basically the Computer allows the the motor to cycle once so it can take air out of the tank, cycle a round (paint-ball) and release(fire) with the press of a switch (which really only a trigger.) Paint ball itself doesn't generate Enough G force to damage small electronics.

In your design with a real gun, The motor would have to activate a Primer, which will set off the bullet. Which will in turn slam the slide back putting heavy forces on those tiny motor parts. That would not lend itself well on how long you could do this. Plus it would just make everything to damn heavy. I know H&K was trying to develop something like this for the XM8, were it would have a HUD in the optic of shots fired, but they ended up dumping the program off before the Army called the program quits.

[Carmine]

A clarification on my part.

I'm not talking about the RF capabilies, Cycling systems,or triggers....though it would be nice.

All I want is the same function that my Pact timer has (with/or without the RF)built into the guns frame/grip.

Need a timer....it's already on the gun.

Need to know what your split times were...you have a timer.

Need to run practice drills ( el Pres, Bill drill, reload drill...ect) you have a timer.

Need to run a par set time drill on a particular course of fire....you have a timer.

Even if you just work on your draw and fire.....you have a timer.

For goodness sake.....you can put any option you want on your gun...why not this.

As I said if a $ 1000.00 paintball gun can do it...and we have the technology.. a $ 2500 IPSC gun can have it aswell.

The next generation in IPSC/Race guns will incorperate some of this.

For all of those who still like to keep their guns "pure"...how about doing all of these things and displaying them not on the side of the gun....but diplayed in a true heads up display for Open Class guns...of course you can tun off the data part of the display..so you keep the dot,point,..ect as per normal.

Time and technology will stop for no one...the qustion is will you be on that train...or under it?

An open mind is priceless.

Ciao.

Man that's the most I've typed all week.

[Vlad]

I tell you what, why don't you make it, make sure it works, and get rich off this idea? Let us know what recoil does the electronics. Also, unless we start keeping time with our guns (I can see it now, RO's running around with their own gun in hand) we still need stand alone timers. And if we have them anyway, why are we paying stupid money for integrated timer?

But, hey, maybe I'm wrong and you have a magic 8ball showing you how IPSC guns will look. Heck, IPSC is going kind airsoft anyway. If you are so sure it is the right way to go, then make it happen and prove me wrong. Wait, were you waiting for someone else do this?

[edison]

"can I borrow a 9-volt?"

anyway, a lube indicator or shot counter would be nice.

[RoryW]

if you ask me, not a bad idea on an optic. it could have a spy mode and full control of what can be seen in the display. Be careful what you ask for, you never know who's reading this.

[38supPat]

Once upon a time we never thought scopes were a good idea or would last on an IPSC gun....

There's posibilities that it could do stuff we can do now. If, with a motion sensor, it could actually track the time the gun moves, like from the holster to the first shot or how soon after a shot breaks the gun starts to move for a reload, or how long after it stops moving (from draw reload or mounting it) the shot breaks. But even with a timer feature you could remove one more thing from your belt during practice and with the right sensor it could even tell you your time on a run before the RO does...since it would be on your gun the whole time....all it has to do is read the start timer beep and the subsequent shots...

[RoryW]

For the starter, all you need is an accelerator. when the gun is pointing down or at rest you hit the start button. any movement after, starts the internal timer. the mic can be placed anywhere on the scope and as for the C-more the buttons cold be placed on the back.

Carmine, you might want to patent this. I can already see this coming in the near future. all you need now is C-more calling you to help on the design.

Edited June 26, 2010 by RoryW

[caspian guy]

Its an interesting idea however...

To work it would need to:

1) Not add any weight to the gun.

2.) Hold zero (if it were part of the scope.

3.) Not reduce the already miserable battery life of my scope even further.

4.) Be durable enough to withstand the gforces associated with being attached to an open gun shooting major pf ammo (check some of the high speed video on this site for some startling insight as to what happens to a scope and mount duing firing)

5.) Not cost more than 400 dollars in the quantities (small) that you could sell them.

Even if you could make all that work I am still not sure what the benefit would be over a standard timer for practice.

[Corey]

as much as like the idea, i dont think its feasible. the paintball setups today are an electronic switch that when activated by the trigger sends a signal to a solenoid and releases a rush of air pushing the paintball out the barrel. then the air is reversed, moving the bolt rearward allowing the next ball to fall in from the stack. all this at 15/sec, lol. doing what you want would be the equivalent of mod-ing an old mech-cocker(paintball guys know what im talking about), and even then itd be tough because we arent using air, whether electrically ot mechanically involved. its all mechanics. safety allows trigger to move, trigger pushes spring, spring moves sear, sear moves and allows a spring-forced hammer to fall, physical contact fires gun....etc. a major frame overall would be needed to even come remotely close to getting it done.

[Carmine]

I'm sure that someone at C-more is on this forum....it's just a mater of time.

As for the coments about "9-volts" or "can't take the impact" or "you do it first"...I have this to say.

Power: CR 2032 or something of that nature.

Impact resistant..someone tell SVI stop puting dot sights onto the slides of their fine guns.

And as far as "you do it first"...let me see I was one of the first people to get the Tasco 2000, one of the first people to get the Springfield Armory P9..Open Gun...way back in the day...so I've done some things first and yes sometinmes they didn't workout..but I at least tried something new.

I believe the founder of this forum would have something to say in regards to " it can't be done".

[Vlad]

Oh I'm sure it can be done. I'm just not sure that the trade offs will be worth it, and its reliability will be questionable. I see open guns blowing away light bulbs in indoor ranges, I'm guessing the tiny mic you need to place on your gun will need to be replace on a shockbuff schedule. What is this getting you besides "ooh shinny!"? Does it improve your shooting?, Does it make your gun run better, faster, cleaner?

[Carmine]

I'm happy to see lively debate on this forum...I don't think it's impossible to do but pushing the limit is always fun.

An interesting point that Vlad brought up.."better,faster,cleaner"...maybe the answer is not using what I've discused.

If that's the case..then maybe the next topic should be "How would you make the 2011 platform better, faster and cleaner?"

An interesting point given the almost unlimited amount of mods and parts out there.

If it falls into the discusion of the "perfect" or "dream gun"...so be it.

My thanks to everbody for their input on this subject.

Ciao.

[G-ManBart]

Hmmmm...let's see here. Right now the cheapest grip you can get for an S_I runs $100+. If you add electronics, it's got to get more expensive...maybe $200? For $100 or so I can get a timer that will work with all of my guns, not just the one with it built into the grip

[Carmine]

Well,though I like my Single stack...I was able to justify my purchase of 2 wide body ST's.

I wonder if the good people at SV have decided "that's enough" inovation?

Just wondering.

Once again thanks for the input and some new ideas.

Ciao.

Carm.

[JRW]

This may be a starting point for what you are describing: http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=456

Since it is designed for crew served weapons, I am sure it can taken the abuse of a pistol. It would need to be downsized to fit in the grips of a pistol and some advancements to the timing...

If you could add GPS as well as the accelerometer, you would have almost a black box for the pistol. Imagine being to download and replay a COF for analysis. Better yet, it could be an investigative tool for law enforcement..

[Carmine]

Thanks JRW...that's the spirit.

Ciao.

[TreblePlink]

If I could make a wish for open gun technology, how about a Laser sight, that instead of producing 2 milliwatts (2/1000ths of a watt) output, would run a full watt of visible laser, activated from slight trigger press, that would easily be visible in bright daylight at 50 yards? And it would be low profile, mounted to the slide. Battery life might be a bit of an issue, but ...

[Vlad]

If you could add GPS as well as the accelerometer, you would have almost a black box for the pistol. Imagine being to download and replay a COF for analysis. Better yet, it could be an investigative tool for law enforcement..

GPS is not that accurate, and you really don't want to give lawmakers more ideas about gun control, I say this as someone who lives in a state with a smart gun law on the books. Also video recordings are a lot more useful for COF analysis then a GPS trail is going to be.

Also it is not so much that STI or SVI have stop innovating, but there is only so much you can do to hand held firearm that still functions, before it gets to be the size of a rifle. On the other hand there has been huge innovation in the rifle market and rifle scope market. Stop asking your handgun to be a super phaser, it isn't and it can't be.

Also batteries suck, specially small ones. Don't expect that CR2032 to power your timer, gps, dot, accelerometer, video camera, hand warmer, margarita blender, or whatever else you want to hang from your handgun.

It is nice to dream and "innovate" is a lot harder to actually put it into practice, I can dream of lots of toys I want, but I'm not going to accuse manufacturers for building you the Homer Simpson car of your dreams

Edited June 26, 2010 by Vlad

[G-ManBart]

The current S_I platform guns run in the $2-5K range. If someone comes up with a significant improvement, how much are those guns going to cost? How many people will be able to afford them? Will the company be able to sell enough to make a profit and survive? How much of an actual improvement will it offer? These are the kinds of things the limit innovation. Caseless ammo might offer the only really dramatic shift in the configuration of raceguns....but it'll take a lot of work to get to that.

[bdpaz]

I sure I hope I never need (most of) you all's help in brainstorming !

Don't be negative or judgmental - and that includes asking if SV has stopped innovating.

In this case, the first step is to come up with ideas/functions that you want without considering cost or current technical capabilities. The result is a blue sky wish list of random cool features.

Then consider the pros and cons of the features, individually and as related to each other. If you don't like someone's idea don't criticize the person but state the functional drawbacks to that idea, and ideally offer an alternative. Don't defend an idea just because it was yours (if you've thrown out a lot of ideas, chances are some will look silly after some more thought). You can begin to consider physical limitations in general terms (e.g. is there space on the gun to display XXX info while maintaining a firing grip or will it need some type of remote display?).

After you have refined the concepts into some specific items/improvements/additions, the third phase is to consider their value (NOT THEIR COST!!!). Is a given feature hugely important and worth hundreds of dollars to you, is it cool but of no major importance so that you'd only pay a few dollars for it, or somewhere in between.

Now get this information to the manufacturers so they know what features you'd like and approximately what you'd pay for them. Maybe something will come of it, maybe not. But it never hurts to ask!

[Carmine]

Thanks for the feedback....WOW, it's good to see pasion on this forum.

Ciao.

[Team Amish 1]

As time goes by, electronics get smaller, better, and cheaper.

Cars used to not have TV screen and TV's were only 1 per family, so I am not buying the "rather have one that I can use on any gun" argument.

I can't really see the niche for "i-guns" (should I trademark that?), though. Perhaps in very focused training applications? Not sure. Then again, not every new idea is always a hit with everyone right from the start. Interesting angle.