Groups opening up after 20 yards...

[spook]

Topic title pretty much says it all.

I have a G17 and I can hit the upper A-box @15yds all day long. But if I move the target back to 30yd, I find it hard to even hit the lower A-zone...

The gun is entirely stock, except for the .115 Ameriglo plain target front and the .150 Ameriglo rear sight.

Does anyone have smililar experiences? Or any explaination for this to happen?

Thanks.

[Flexmoney]

Only thing I can think of is the bullets are coming apart or becoming unstable. That, or you just can't see as well as you used to.

[Hi-Power Jack]

Topic title pretty much says it all.

I have a G17 and I can hit the upper A-box @15yds all day long. But if I move the target back to 30yd, I find it hard to even hit the lower A-zone...

The gun is entirely stock, except for the .115 Ameriglo plain target front and the .150 Ameriglo rear sight.

Does anyone have smililar experiences? Or any explaination for this to happen?

Thanks.

I had the same problem with my Browning Hi-Power. Blamed my old eyes:(

I thought I could see better at 15 yards than 30 yards, because I could

hit anything at 15 yards, but not at 25 yards.

But, it turned out the gun was not real accurate with the cheap 115 gr

Remington Green Box ammo I was using.

Reloads with 147 gr bullets made a huge difference. Now I can hit 3" groups

at 25 yards slowly, with my special shooting glasses (not long distance, or

reading glasses, but a Rx in between the two).

[Sarge]

Doesn't a shot group naturally open up the farther out it gets? The only thing I can think of to test it out is to cut a small hole in a target and put it out maybe 7-10 yards and shoot through it at targets at different distances and see what you come up with. This should rule out the eyes anyway, right?

Edited June 17, 2010 by Sarge

[Steve J]

Have you tried shooting it from a rest? Can't say much about the gun or the ammo until you take YOU out of the equation.

[jbullgpd]

Have you tried shooting it from a rest? Can't say much about the gun or the ammo until you take YOU out of the equation.

+1 on the above.

[ck1]

I ask myself this same question all the time... my one-hole groups at 10-15 yards don't look so pretty at 25. IMO, it can be a mixture of some of the things mentioned: (1) very small movements upsetting the gun that don't show up on paper close become easy to see the further out you go... (2) like Flex said, could be your eyesight (coincidentally, just got my contact Rx updated and I've seen an honest improvement when shooting at distance) (3) ammo quality... while I've seen plenty of nice groups from WWB, it does seem that when shooting for accuracy further out the quality of the stuff you're shooting does come into play, this is normally something I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in, but not to long ago I was out proving to a friend that Glocks can indeed be really accurate (he's a 1911-snob Glock-hater, or was anyway...) and I got some VERY impressive groups shooting my 124gr +P Gold Dot carry stuff, while the best group I got out of the cheaper WWB/Champion/Monarch stuff wasn't even half as good, gotta say that at distance I'm a believer, the ammo counts.

I'd add that while it's old news to some, I went from shooting a .140-.125 wide front sight to a thinner .115 and find I'm far less vague when shooting further out.

Edited June 17, 2010 by ck1

[BradGannaway]

Move the target back to 15 yards......

BSG

[spook]

Thanks for the replies guys

Flex, those are the two options I considered. I'll fiddle with my reloading press to see what can be done. I shoot Speer double struck copper plated 124 grain bullets with 4.2grain of N320, FWIW.

Sarge, yes groups always open up, but at less than twice the distance I get up to 4 times the group size!

I'll try shooting from a rest too. Will post results

[Hi-Power Jack]

Thanks for the replies guys

Flex, those are the two options I considered. I'll fiddle with my reloading press to see what can be done. I shoot Speer double struck copper plated 124 grain bullets with 4.2grain of N320, FWIW.

Sarge, yes groups always open up, but at less than twice the distance I get up to 4 times the group size!

I'll try shooting from a rest too. Will post results

Try higher and lower charges of N320, and try some lighter

and heavier bullets - the 115 and 124's were grouping much

worse for me at 25 yards than the 147's.

Jack

[Nik Habicht]

Thanks for the replies guys

Flex, those are the two options I considered. I'll fiddle with my reloading press to see what can be done. I shoot Speer double struck copper plated 124 grain bullets with 4.2grain of N320, FWIW.

Sarge, yes groups always open up, but at less than twice the distance I get up to 4 times the group size!

I'll try shooting from a rest too. Will post results

Plated really makes me wonder about tumbling bullets -- and keyholed entries on the far target?

Tumbling bullets got me to abandon plated bullets and move to jacketed.....

Tumbling = not in a tumbler, but rather the bullet starts turning end over end at some point after being fired. That may not happen with all rounds, just some, which makes it harder to track down....

At a match, you might notice one or two keyholed holes on a target per stage....

[Sarge]

124's were grouping much

worse for me at 25 yards than the 147's.

Jack

I had the same experience with my M&P Pro but my G34 groups 124's just fine.

[Pezco]

Accuracy will degrade with distance. Not only because of the guns capabilities, but mostly because of the person capabilities. Every little mistake (trigger control comes to mind) is magnified at distance. As Steve said check the gun from a rest, a fixed mounted Ransom rest or the like is best for testing. I don't however believe that 1" at 50 yards is necessary for our IPSC game.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Pezco

[spook]

Plated really makes me wonder about tumbling bullets -- and keyholed entries on the far target?

Tumbling bullets got me to abandon plated bullets and move to jacketed.....

Tumbling = not in a tumbler, but rather the bullet starts turning end over end at some point after being fired. That may not happen with all rounds, just some, which makes it harder to track down....

At a match, you might notice one or two keyholed holes on a target per stage....

I checked for tumbling, but I have no keyholing at all. I'll try different powder charges and loads. Maybe check the crimp.

I was also contemplating using another powder. Something slower, such as N350.

Sarge, true, but I get 1-2" @15yds and waaay more than double that @30yds

[Flexmoney]

Sarge, true, but I get 1-2" @15yds and waaay more than double that @30yds

And, you would. If you got a 2" group at 15y, the theoretical best you could hope for at 30y would be 4".

But, the sight (mis) alignment with relation to the target is going to be amplified beyond that 4", I believe.

And, you indicated that you were shooting heads at 15y, and body shots at 30y (and some such equivalent)? Not only does the increased distance make the aiming more vague...and the feedback from the sights more vague...but, it sounds like the target itself is more vague.

There is also some sight (size) variables, in relation to the target. And, that eyesight stuff.

Not that you are doing anything wrong...there are just quite a few factors involved.

It would be great to be able to have the gun in a mechanical (Ransom) rest. Group it at 15y, then...without changing anything, pull the target back to 20y, 25y, 30y, etc.

I fear plated bullets too. They used to be quite popular here in the States, as the difference in price was pretty good compared to jacketed...and performance was OK as we used to see a lot of hoser targets.

Keep us posted and let us know what you find out.

[jkatz44]

124's were grouping much

worse for me at 25 yards than the 147's.

Jack

I had the same experience with my M&P Pro but my G34 groups 124's just fine.

So,

You are saying that 124s are inaccurate in M&P's?

[Sarge]

124's were grouping much

worse for me at 25 yards than the 147's.

Jack

I had the same experience with my M&P Pro but my G34 groups 124's just fine.

So,

You are saying that 124s are inaccurate in M&P's?

Oh no you don't! I am saying MG 124 CMJ shot 8" groups out of MY M&P pro @25 yards while MG 147 CMJ's were around 3". That was an overall average with different loads etc in MY particular gun/experience.

[Sarge]

Sarge, true, but I get 1-2" @15yds and waaay more than double that @30yds

And, you would. If you got a 2" group at 15y, the theoretical best you could hope for at 30y would be 4".

But, the sight (mis) alignment with relation to the target is going to be amplified beyond that 4", I believe.

And, you indicated that you were shooting heads at 15y, and body shots at 30y (and some such equivalent)? Not only does the increased distance make the aiming more vague...and the feedback from the sights more vague...but, it sounds like the target itself is more vague.

There is also some sight (size) variables, in relation to the target. And, that eyesight stuff.

Not that you are doing anything wrong...there are just quite a few factors involved.

It would be great to be able to have the gun in a mechanical (Ransom) rest. Group it at 15y, then...without changing anything, pull the target back to 20y, 25y, 30y, etc.

I fear plated bullets too. They used to be quite popular here in the States, as the difference in price was pretty good compared to jacketed...and performance was OK as we used to see a lot of hoser targets.

Keep us posted and let us know what you find out.

I guess the word "exponential" comes to mind. Even a rifle that shoots three rounds in the same hole at 100 yds will be spread out considerably at 1000 right?

[jkatz44]

124's were grouping much

worse for me at 25 yards than the 147's.

Jack

I had the same experience with my M&P Pro but my G34 groups 124's just fine.

So,

You are saying that 124s are inaccurate in M&P's?

Oh no you don't! I am saying MG 124 CMJ shot 8" groups out of MY M&P pro @25 yards while MG 147 CMJ's were around 3". That was an overall average with different loads etc in MY particular gun/experience.

I was just wondering because I was about to order 124's to try some out. How was recoil different than 124 and 147's.

Jason

[GrumpyOne]

Doesn't a shot group naturally open up the farther out it gets? The only thing I can think of to test it out is to cut a small hole in a target and put it out maybe 7-10 yards and shoot through it at targets at different distances and see what you come up with. This should rule out the eyes anyway, right?

That's an excellent idea! +100

I remember watching a show about machine gunners in WWII, and how they would drill holes in their bullets before a fire fight, so that they could get a bit more distance out of them. IIRC, they also stated that they had to constantly adjust the machine gun mount as the recoil would bump/vibrate the mount, causing the bullets to go high, somethiing to the order of for every 1mm too high that the bullet left the barrel, at the target, 1,000 yards away, they were something like 6' over the enemy's head. So, following that theory, for every millimeter that your sight picture is different, the result downrange will be magnified.

Edited June 19, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[calishootr]

you can see a headbox on a target at 30 yrds??? hehehe i used to, I am afraid I am with the others on plated bullets, tho the 'double struck' ones seem to be of a better quality, you are still atthe mercy ofthe plater and if they did their job ok...back a while ago when lead was actually ALOT cheaper than jacketed we were shooting plated and got all kinds of variety in group size, a friend shot a stage wherethe target were at 40 yrds, full open targets, he said he didnt get any penalties for non-engagment, but then again, he didnt get any points on em either....

[Sarge]

Jason,

The whole recoil difference thing between 124's and 147's depends so much on the shooter that it is very hard to describe to another shooter, at least for me it is. In my opinion and at my current skill level I just don't experience the "WOW" moment when I shoot a 147. I do feel a difference but I can't bring myself to say the recoil is softer or better. It just feels "different". When I couple that with getting 124's cheaper than 147's it makes the difference even less of a factor.

As for my Pro, it just favored 147's when it came to groups. It is entirely possible I did not give the 124 combination a chance. I most likely could have worked with oal, crimp, different powders etc and dialed it in eventually.