mag trimming for production division

[Mo Hepworth]

I havea tanfoglio stock2 in 9mm,...and I prefer to use the rubber base pads. I just by the measurements I have and from another shooters experience, I know it will not fit in the box for production. Is trimming of the rubber base pads legal for USPSA production division?

I know my aluminum and flat base pads will fit,...but I prefer the rubber ones.

[sperman]

From the 2009 Production Rules Revisions:

Prior restrictions on magazines have been lifted. OEM and aftermarket magazines and base-pads may be used. However, any and all magazines used in competition, must fit into the USPSA box while empty and inserted in the handgun as described in item 7 of this appendix. Grip tape and/or skate board tape are specifically allowed on magazines and base-pads.

ETA: I just noticed you were from Canada. The rules listed are for USPSA. I'm not sure about IPSC.

Edited May 30, 2010 by sperman

[Nik Habicht]

For USPSA Production -- which you asked about -- the constraints are "does the gun fit in the box with (all of the) mag(s) used in a match inserted" and "does the gun and empty mag make weight?"

AS long as you're good on those two, and only load ten rounds, your mags are usable....

[ima45dv8]

My reading of the revised rules for Production leads me to think trimming magazine basepads would not be allowed and would require a move to Open. I say this from the stand point that the rules clearly state that unless a modification is specifically allowed, then it isn't.

Item 21.7 (Magazines) does lift the restriction on using aftermarket basepads, but it doesn't say they can be altered. That would be an external modification. Couple that with Special Condition #2 at the end of the list and I think I'd consider long and hard just how competitive that Tanfoglio would be in Open with no comp, no dot, and trimmed basepads.

Special Cond #2

Unless specifically authorized above, modifications are prohibited.

UNLESS a modification is SPECIFICALLY authorized in the rules or SPECIFICALLY authorized in an official, published NROI interpretation, it is considered a PROHIBITED MODIFICATION.

[G-ManBart]

For USPSA Production -- which you asked about -- the constraints are "does the gun fit in the box with (all of the) mag(s) used in a match inserted" and "does the gun and empty mag make weight?"

AS long as you're good on those two, and only load ten rounds, your mags are usable....

In the thread about magazine weights for Production you said that adding a blob of lead to the inside of a stock magazine wouldn't be permitted for USPSA Production (paraphrasing). I'm just wondering how this would be any different? R,

[pvhendrix]

For USPSA Production -- which you asked about -- the constraints are "does the gun fit in the box with (all of the) mag(s) used in a match inserted" and "does the gun and empty mag make weight?"

AS long as you're good on those two, and only load ten rounds, your mags are usable....

I could be wrong, but no where in the rules, do I read about a mag being in the gun for weight except in Single Stack Division. When have they began using the mag in the gun for Production weight. The manfacture's listed weight for their guns is empty, no mention of with magazine for listed weight. Have folks confused the rules for SS and Production or have I missed something??

[Nik Habicht]

You guys might be right vis-a-vis the not expressly permitted language.....

I was peripherally involved in the discussion leading up to the rules interpretation, and know that at least some of the folks involved wanted to create and objective and uncomplicated way to check on mag compliance. Fit in the box was intended to do that.....

Mo, you should probably double check with John Amidon for an interpretation --- and I'd phrase the question carefully, and specifically.....

[Nik Habicht]

For USPSA Production -- which you asked about -- the constraints are "does the gun fit in the box with (all of the) mag(s) used in a match inserted" and "does the gun and empty mag make weight?"

AS long as you're good on those two, and only load ten rounds, your mags are usable....

I could be wrong, but no where in the rules, do I read about a mag being in the gun for weight except in Single Stack Division. When have they began using the mag in the gun for Production weight. The manfacture's listed weight for their guns is empty, no mention of with magazine for listed weight. Have folks confused the rules for SS and Production or have I missed something??

Actually, I can't find a mention anywhere of whether or not guns are weighed with a mag or without (in divisions other than SS). Likewise, I can't find mention anywhere on the Production gun list whether those weights include the 2 oz. allowable overage or not.....

[staudacher]

Title: Aftermarket magazines in Production Division

Created: 8/22/07

Updated: 7/31/08

Effective: 8/07/08

Rule number: Appx D4 Spec

Applies to: Pistol

Ruling authority: John Amidon

Status: Released

Question

Can I use any after market magazine in my gun for Production? Also, may I grind off part of the base pad on my S&W M&P?

Ruling

After market magazines are allowed in Production, as long as they are dimensionally the same as the original magazine for that model gun? In other words, you may not use a Glock 33 round mag in an approved Glock gun, regardless of only loading 10 rounds in it. Grinding on the magazine base pad, would be an external modification and not allowed, the magazine when inserted, is a functioning part of the gun and the base pad is external.

It looks like it is not allowed in USPSA since it would be considered an external modification.

Edited May 30, 2010 by staudacher

[Nik Habicht]

Title: Aftermarket magazines in Production Division

Created: 8/22/07

Updated: 7/31/08

Effective: 8/07/08

Rule number: Appx D4 Spec

Applies to: Pistol

Ruling authority: John Amidon

Status: Released

Question

Can I use any after market magazine in my gun for Production? Also, may I grind off part of the base pad on my S&W M&P?

Ruling

After market magazines are allowed in Production, as long as they are dimensionally the same as the original magazine for that model gun? In other words, you may not use a Glock 33 round mag in an approved Glock gun, regardless of only loading 10 rounds in it. Grinding on the magazine base pad, would be an external modification and not allowed, the magazine when inserted, is a functioning part of the gun and the base pad is external.

It looks like it is not allowed in USPSA since it would be considered an external modification.

Since part of that ruling got tossed in the massive interpretation from 2009, I'm not sure the rest of it stands. Asking Amidon is probably the only way to get a straight answer....

[ima45dv8]

Yeah, that was good research, but Nik might be right about it being superseded by the 2009 Production rulings.

Asking DNROI only kills a few electrons and might save a big surprise later.

[staudacher]

Title: Aftermarket magazines in Production Division

Created: 8/22/07

Updated: 7/31/08

Effective: 8/07/08

Rule number: Appx D4 Spec

Applies to: Pistol

Ruling authority: John Amidon

Status: Released

Question

Can I use any after market magazine in my gun for Production? Also, may I grind off part of the base pad on my S&W M&P?

Ruling

After market magazines are allowed in Production, as long as they are dimensionally the same as the original magazine for that model gun? In other words, you may not use a Glock 33 round mag in an approved Glock gun, regardless of only loading 10 rounds in it. Grinding on the magazine base pad, would be an external modification and not allowed, the magazine when inserted, is a functioning part of the gun and the base pad is external.

It looks like it is not allowed in USPSA since it would be considered an external modification.

Since part of that ruling got tossed in the massive interpretation from 2009, I'm not sure the rest of it stands. Asking Amidon is probably the only way to get a straight answer....

Agreed, but to me it makes sense that the "external modification" restriction would still stand. The 09 interpretation does toss out this part IMO "as long as they are dimensionally the same as the original magazine for that model gun? In other words, you may not use a Glock 33 round mag in an approved Glock gun, regardless of only loading 10 rounds in it"

Maybe I am totally out to lunch on this but I still see it as an illegal mod.

Edited May 30, 2010 by staudacher

[ima45dv8]

I think it is, too. My advice to ask Mr. Amidon was really more directed at folks who might think the revised rules would permit trimming the basepads.

[sfinney]

Prior restrictions on magazines have been lifted. OEM and aftermarket magazines and base-pads may be used.

So some think trimming is an external modification? How bout this -

Ok.... so I buy a bunch of legal unmodified base pads, trim them, and then sell them to myself and/or others as "aftermarket" base pads... now are they still illegal? Are they externally modified, or an "aftermarket" product? I think the horse left the barn on this, you should be able to use any basepads you want that fit the box now, included stippled, ground, glued, or skateboard taped.....

[Nik Habicht]

Prior restrictions on magazines have been lifted. OEM and aftermarket magazines and base-pads may be used.

So some think trimming is an external modification? How bout this -

Ok.... so I buy a bunch of legal unmodified base pads, trim them, and then sell them to myself and/or others as "aftermarket" base pads... now are they still illegal? Are they externally modified, or an "aftermarket" product? I think the horse left the barn on this, you should be able to use any basepads you want that fit the box now, included stippled, ground, glued, or skateboard taped.....

I'm pretty sure that was the intent of at least some of the folks involved in the process -- in part because determining legality would be easy: Either the gun/mag fits, or it doesn't....

I'm pretty sure that the "Prior restrictions" language tossed the interpretation from 2008.....

If I were to RM a match, I'd want to clear that up with Amidon though to be certain I was on the same page as everyone else...

[spanky]

I don't know about the rules because I don't have my rulevook with me but every time i've seen an SS or production gun weighed or boxed, it was with an empty mag.

[Skydiver]

Hmmm... Looking at the rule book:

Appendix D4 - Production Division

18 Maximum weight: Yes, 2 ounces over weight listed on approved pistol list.

Appendix D5 - Single Stack Division

18 Maximum weight: Yes, 43 ounces with empty magazine.

So unless there's a clarification elsewhere, it looks like weight without a mag for production, and weight with an empty mag for single stack.

As for size, both stipulate that the gun must fit in the box with an empty magazine.

(I've heard that it's acceptable to push up the mag and push down the rear sights if they are springy while inserting into the box, but that maybe another topic for another thread. Also another topic for another thread, I've also read that IPSC has specifically banned telescoping magazines in its current rule book, but USPSA doesn't have a similar rule. I suspect the telescoping magazines may fall into unsportsmanlike conduct for USPSA.)

Edited May 30, 2010 by Skydiver

[spanky]

Interesting.

[Nik Habicht]

I've also read that IPSC has specifically banned telescoping magazines in its current rule book, but USPSA doesn't have a similar rule. I suspect the telescoping magazines may fall into unsportsmanlike conduct for USPSA.)

Not really a problem. We have a mag gauge. A loaded telescoping mag that passes the gauge is good to go, one that doesn't results in a trip to open, or to no-score land....

[wide45]

We don't check loaded mags in the box, or gauge.

[George Jones]

We don't check loaded mags in the .......... gauge.

Why not?

ETA: Disregard. I forgot this is about Production Division.

Edited May 31, 2010 by George Jones

[Mo Hepworth]

thanks for the input. Looks like to be safe I should just use the aluminum pads or henning pads.

thanks

MO

[splashdown]

We don't check loaded mags in the .......... gauge.

Why not?

ETA: Disregard. I forgot this is about Production Division.

I think the key word here is "loaded". We do not check loaded mags in the gauge. We don't fit the gun to the box with a loaded mag.

[lugnut]

So base plates with Jentra rubber mag bumpers should be fine too right? As long as the gun fits in the box? I bought them as a single after market part but they look like a stock Glock mag plate with the Jentra bumpers on them.

Are the dimensions of the USPSA box similar to the IDPA box? I've never seen a USPSA box!

Edited June 13, 2010 by lugnut

[staudacher]

Are the dimensions of the USPSA box similar to the IDPA box? I've never seen a USPSA box!

8 15/16" x 6" x 1 5/8" with a +1/16" tolerance.