Opening a Port

[oddjob]

We had a match where there was two ports that needed to be pushed open to shoot targets. Shooters were pushing the ports open with the muzzle of their gun. I mentioned it to the MD that I thought it was a DQ, but I wasn't sure. Other veteran shooters thought the same thing. The MD and another were looking through the current rule book and could not find anything that said a shooter couldn't do it. Is it a no-no?? I thought I read in Front Sight it was a no-no. Thoughts??

[JThompson]

We had a match where there was two ports that needed to be pushed open to shoot targets. Shooters were pushing the ports open with the muzzle of their gun. I mentioned it to the MD that I thought it was a DQ, but I wasn't sure. Other veteran shooters thought the same thing. The MD and another were looking through the current rule book and could not find anything that said a shooter couldn't do it. Is it a no-no?? I thought I read in Front Sight it was a no-no. Thoughts??

Don't know of anything which prevents it.

[aztecdriver]

I just went through the rulebook and the NROI rulings. I don't see a rule that states manipulating a port with the muzzle of the gun is not permitted. I'll see if anyone one else can quote one I missed. Barring that, I'd say no DQ.

[boz1911]

No rule preventing it. I've even done it with the Glock I owned temporarily.......

[ima45dv8]

No rule preventing it.

None that I know of.

I've even done it with the Glock I owned temporarily.......

Yeah, but you were just trying to break the g-Lock cause you couldn't shoot it worth a damn and needed an excuse to go back to your Open gun.

[Nik Habicht]

Not illegal. Not smart with lightly sprung guns -- they sometimes move out of battery just enough, that pulling the trigger doesn't do anything, until the shooter bangs his hand into the rear of the slide....

[LPatterson]

While there is nothing against it in the rule book, it is not the safest gun handling as it could lead to an AD. Exclude it in the Written Stage Briefing after all 10.5 says examples, but not limited to....

[George Jones]

While there is nothing against it in the rule book, it is not the safest gun handling as it could lead to an AD. Exclude it in the Written Stage Briefing after all 10.5 says examples, but not limited to....

I would make a different suggestion. If the match staff wants to prevent that technique, a WSB restriction is not the optimum way to do it. I dislike using threat of penalty to prevent something which is "preventable".

Simply make it a "pull to open" port.

[wide45]

The first couple of times I used the gun to open a port, I put the safety on to prevent the slide getting pushed back.

Soon found it was no big deal. There is nothing dangerous here. Gun won't go bang, unless finger is on the trigger.

Finger on trigger when changing positions, or moving when not aiming, is already illegal. What's the point of getting your panties bunched about this?

[Flexmoney]

Opening ports are a great little test in their own right.

It's uncommon for me to get "caught" by a prop anymore, yet the (3) ports on one of the stages at the Area 5 match last year got me. Of course, I made it a point to try them out during a walk-thru (always test them if you can), but I wasn't doing so at match speed.

When I shot, I tapped (with my hand) the first port open with enough umph that it bounced back up and into my point of aim. So, I had to wait on it to clear, probably cost me a half second.

I did the same thing on the second port. Didn't seem like I tapped it very hard. Another half second.

By the third port, I got it figured out.

Oh, nothing in the rules to prevent opening it any way you see fit. I know I wouldn't do so with a gun with a light trigger job.

[oddjob]

Thanks folks.........

[Aloha Robert]

Using muzzle against props is done all the time at Big Matches and I have never seen anyone DQ'd for it. Also guys will use muzzle against a solid wall prop to stop momentum of them going forward, also very legal and effective. (Works real well when you have to run forward and open door with weak hand, then use strong hand gun muzzle to stop momemntum while opening door.)

If course desingner does not want you to use muzzle to open port, then they should use some other activating device like a rope, vertically sliding louvre or platform activation. Although I suppose someone could prohibit it in stage briefing, as a general rule it is not considered good form to restrict shooters actions by briefing words rather than props or rules. (Of course there are exceptions to almost everything especially at club level matches where prop resources tend to be more limited).

More or less if it is not in rule book or briefing it is legal. If it's not in rule book and you restrict something with briefing, the exact penalty should be described in briefing.

[Micah]

It's one of those things that you need to practice before a major match to see how/if it jams your gun. If you pop a port with the muzzle of your gun and the gun goes off, you had your finger on the trigger.

Making a common practice a forbidden action takes away from the freestyle aspect of the sport.

[yuthh]

USPSA is OK .But you might get DQ in IPSC.

[jkatz44]

USPSA is OK .But you might get DQ in IPSC.

Why would you get DQed in IPSC?

[yuthh]

USPSA is OK .But you might get DQ in IPSC.

Why would you get DQed in IPSC?

I used to shoot several IPSC matchs out of the country back in 2000-2005 but I could not recall where(Australia or Greek).They considered unsafe shooting or unsafe handling.Have to get back to the IPSC rule book since I have not shot IPSC for a while.

Edited July 4, 2010 by yuthh

[Schutzenmeister]

I'm still a certified IROA CRO ... There is nothing in the IPSC rule book which expressly addresses this subject. However, you are correct that many in the international community (though not all) would call this unsafe gun handling under the "examples include, but are not limited to" portion of 10.5.

Don't shoot me ... I'm just addressing the question!!!

Late Edit: I thought I'd check the GV to see if I could find a discussion on this subject there ... I couldn't. I've started one ... Will let everyone know the general consensus in a few days --- if anyone cares to know the international view on the topic, that is!

Edited July 4, 2010 by Schutzenmeister

[Gregory_k]

Only a DQ if the gun goes bang.

[Schutzenmeister]

Only a DQ if the gun goes bang.

In which case, the DQ would not be for opening the port with the muzzle, but rather for an accidental discharge ...

The discussion on the GV (wrt IPSC rules) is interesting, and about as I would have thought. I will give it another day and then summarize the international responses here.

[Schutzenmeister]

There were three general responses on this topic on the GV WRT an IPSC rules match:

1 - No problem. The rules do not prohibit it. If you are comfortable with it, go for it. Just be safe. This view was in the minority and chiefly was an American point of view, though not exclusively.

2 - I'm not really comfortable with it, but I can't see where it's against the rules. I really don't like the practice, but I don't see how (absent some other thing, 180, AD, etc.) it should be a DQ. This was also a minority view and seemed not to favor any one geographical area.

3 - It's UNSAFE GUN HANDLING ... period. Issue a match DQ under 10.5 using the "examples include, but are not limited to" language at the beginning of the rule. This was the view of a plurality of posters, most notably Vince Pinto. Vince is probably the most authoritative voice on the GV and many IROA ROs (though not all) will take what he says and run with it.

It should be noted that if you are DQ'd for such an action, your only appeal in arbitration would be that the action is not prohibited by the rules and is not in fact unsafe. (You cannot argue that it did not happen ... 11.1.2). The RO will argue that it falls under the "catch-all" language (cited above) and is inherently an unsafe practice. Your fate (and your $100) would then be up to your skills vs the RO's skills in arguing the case before the AC and, of course, the mood of the 2 out of 3 members of the AC.

[Sandro]

There is a big discussion going on somewhere else about this too.

Now, I have done it a few times, and I don't see anything in our rule book saying you can't.

[Schutzenmeister]

There is a big discussion going on somewhere else about this too.

Now, I have done it a few times, and I don't see anything in our rule book saying you can't.

I've seen it done on more than one occassion ... up to and including the US Nationals. I've done it a couple of times, though I now list it as a technique I prefer to avoid. But that's my choice. I've come to the conclusion it's probably not a "best practice," but I do not necessarily consider it "unsafe." As an RO, I will watch a shooter a little more carefully if I believe he is about to do this, simply because of the potential for "other stuff" to go wrong.