jkmccoy Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 OK, it isn't a new subject, but I feel the need to vent a little... The separation of Open and Limited makes sense to me. I don't want to compete against someone shooting a compensated gun with a dot sight (I shoot a .45 Para, limited), but do we really need other divisions? (L10, Production)?? Why? Do these divisions add anything to our sport? Every sport winds up as an equipment race, and I agree (in principle) with trying to minimize that. BUT...Most of us will NEVER win a regional/state/area/national match no matter what equipment we are using. There are some shooters out there that are VERY good at this sport and they are going to win (no matter what equipment they are using). We already have classifications. If you aren't intersted in winning the match you are only shooting against shooters of equal ability. So someone who can get 18 rounds in a magazine edges you because you had to reload 3 times and he only had to reload once. Is that really a problem? Your classication is based on your overall performance, so is his. What can you do with your equipment? (That sounds bad, but you know what I mean.) I started in this sport with a .45 Witness (10 rnd. magazines) with an Uncle Mike's holster and all my mags in my back pocket. I had a blast. Could I win with that equipment? NO! Could I have won with the latest/greatest equipment? NO! We have a lot of new shooters who begin in L10 or Production division, but most of them who stay with the sport very long wind up with a high-cap pistol. Very few stick with the other divisions. It looks to me like most of the people shooting L10 or production in the major matches are doing it because they think they have a better chance of winning (fewer competitors = better prizes). Have we really gained anything with L10 and Production divisions? Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 I think you answered your own question. L-10 and production give the new shooters a chance to come in and try our sport without dropping 3 grand. They are also nice excuses to by more guns and maybe have a couple more matches to shoot in a season. If we piss and moan enough about the new divisions maybe they will just go away, then we get no new shooters and pretty soon you're sitting home on Sun. watching tv talking about when we used to have this sport to shoot. If it brings in new shooters I don't give a if they create a squirt gun division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rishii Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 socialist states such as hawaii and NJ with high cap magazine bans are an other reason for L-10 and production. the simple facts are that high cap mags manufactured after sept. 94 are illegal. in many states hig cap mags are illegal. uspsa had the choice to adapt with the time and preservere or stay the same and die. have L10 or production hurt competetion in the other classes? not that I can see. have they brought in new shooters? yes have these new shooter hurt competetion in any way? no, (unless they beat me, then the answer is yes) all they have done is to allow people to enjoy our sport with a single stack 1911, a s&w or sig 9mm, without having to go up and up with a open gun. it's also allowed me to hang up my open gun for a weekend and shoot a 9mm in production and have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 I'm with rishii. I see so many guys & girls turn up at a club see a real neat S_I and ask how much? Pardon they say after being told. So if someone can buy a 9mm pistol for under $500 and get going we will keep them. The minute they see that to compete against be and others and spend $3000+ practice for ten years they kinda go all cold. I started with a used cz75 in IPSC std and went from there. If production class had been around then, I am sure some of the guys I saw chuck it in would still be at the club. If you want the sport to expand just look at what the cowboy shooting is doing. Lots of people and if you want, not a great deal of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 I'm 17 years old, I got started shooting my Dad's Beretta in IDPA. Being this young, it would be fairly difficult to get my hands on a Limited gun. I know that if L10 and Production didn't exist, I probably wouldn't be shooting IPSC still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 I think there is a place for the different divisions, but why not do away with the classifications and everyone shoot heads up. Is everyones ego that frail that they wouldn't stand to see themselves as 151 out of 300 instead of 3rd C class. Different classes don't change the outcome at all, the same folks win and if you eliminate the classification column and just show the times and factored score, it is all the same. I think I would rather be #220 of 300 than National E class champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 Tightloop: There is quite a thread about shooting "scratch". It would kill the sport, but it is interesting cannon fodder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 More divisions wouldn't be a problem if the dividend were larger, but it's too watered down as it is. A 40-shooter club match gets watered down into four divisions. (Revolver is a non-issue!) Each division gets watered down into six classifications. The classifications become effectively meaningless when you only have 4-6 people in a single division; you may be lucky to get two shooters in the same class. At that point, it's a straight-up scratch competition. Meanwhile, Limited and Open comprise the largest number of entries. In part because the people who have been around a long time, since before the new divisions, had guns & gear suited to the old divisions so they are sticking to L & O. And because they've been around a few years, they developed the skills to become the better shooters in the club (A-GM). Consequently, those divisions have the most/best competition at the club. Meanwhile, new shooters starting in L10 or Production, where the average club shooter is a C, become competitive very quickly. The above-average shooters simply dominate. They look over and L & O where there are knock-down/drag-out battles for overall and class wins, and they get on the phone with Chuck Bradley and get a new S_I blaster and jump ship. More competition in L & O, less in L10 & P... the vicious cycle continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 Erik Then do you just consider L10 and P as a training ground for L & O. Also what was your path from introduction to where you are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 Our club has seen a big increase in activity, and it isn't in Open or Limited. We're getting a swarm of IDPA shooters dropping in for more shooting, guys with carry guns in L10 and Produciton, and even some revolver shooters. Some matches, Open is larger only than revolver, and not always by much. Maybe we don't have good Open shooters, but the match winner is often a limited shooters, who is hard pressed by an L-10 on a tear. It isn't the cost that turns people away. It is partly the churning we had when equipment was being refined, and partly that we don't sell the fun to cost ratio. You think IPSC is expensive? Have you blown a race engine on a dirt bike lately? Priced tires for a season of sprint racing? If we sell the fun to cost ratio (pump up the fun part of it) people won't care that a race gun runs three grand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 If you compare shooting clays on the same scale as you would campaign an open gun it is about 4 or 5 times the cost of pistol shooting; everything is relative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 hehe, I was just going to say, look into the shotgun sports and see what they are paying to play. (I've been pricing sporting clays O/Us lately... ouch!) I don't consider any division a training ground. I just see some people who get into L10 or Prod. and soon look for the bigger fish in the bigger ponds. I started with a Witness .45 10-round gun and carry leather in Limited before there was L10. Also tried 9mm and .40 P9s for capacity against the S_I and Para competition. Finally had an STI built after a couple years of tilting at windmills, just as I made B class, and immediately became competitive in the class and later for club overalls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 I agree 3 grand is not much for a high line hobby. If you buy a 4 wheeler and trailer you are over that. We won't even talk hi tech golf clubs, airplanes, skydiving etc. This is not a cheap sport but nothing fun is. The difference is we are doers. The majority sit and watch NFL or NASCAR on Sun. We compete and do it. That's why we butt heads with each other sometimes. (We are leaders,doers, kind of Patrick Henry types with our opinions) I really appreciate that we have Production. Its a heads up entry level class. Yes I said entry level(What else could I call it, few buy a racegun before even shooting, most start there now). There are a few Production people that can kick my butt, even while I shoot Open, but there are MANY more in Open and Limited that can, Ok I said it. The big dogs run in Open/Limited. Its where they shoot and if you want to compete against the best shoot O/L. If you want to stay in any division more power to you. I am in no way trying to run out or downgrade anyone. We all have our personal reasons for shooting. Bringing in more Glock and Sig shooters means more Open shooters next years. Some of us just gotta race. If you want to be the best, see STI/SV, practice, and shoot Open or Limited. This could change in a few years. I have even thought about shooting Production only. Just because it is somewhat equipment neutral and there would be an internal reward and challenge for winning with a basic gun. Thing is most great shooters will be in O/L as I stated before. I started a long time ago with a Taurus 9mm and a Uncle Mikes. Since this was the combat days when we still said "hostage and such" the people around me humilated me into buying a Springfield .45(real gun) very quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 "A 40-shooter club match gets watered down into four divisions. (Revolver is a non-issue!) Each division gets watered down into six classifications. The classifications become effectively meaningless when you only have 4-6 people in a single division; you may be lucky to get two shooters in the same class. At that point, it's a straight-up scratch competition." I hear what you're saying. At the same time, maybe it says something about my personality, I've never been really interested in a pin that says "1st B Lim-10" or "1st A Lim-10" or even "1st Master Lim-10" (someday). I want the one that says "1st Lim-10" period. "Meanwhile, Limited and Open comprise the largest number of entries." Depends on the club. I can only speak to Washington state, but here, again depending on the club, Open is kind of dying out. At a match you might or might not have a significant number of Open shooters, you'll definitely have a whole bunch of Lim-10, Production might well be a significant factor attendance-wise. And Revolver....well, it's Revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianH Posted September 20, 2002 Share Posted September 20, 2002 "Meanwhile, Limited and Open comprise the largest number of entries." Depends on the club. I can only speak to Washington state, but here, again depending on the club, Open is kind of dying out. . I think what we are seeing here is that most new shooters don't feel comfortable sinking $3-4k into a hobby they're not sure they are going to enjoy, while at the same time most old-schoolers have already been around the open gun block once or twice, and just don't feel like doing it anymore. They still enjoy the shooting and everthing else, but there are so many options now. In the old days, a guy showed up to a match with a Colt .45 (I don't mean a 40-ouncer) or something and the first thing he hears is "you need to go buy a Wilson Accu-comp LE-K kit, and have some Bomars put on and get the front strap checkered, etc etc.....". That doesn't happen now. Most of us shooting open do it because we like comps and scopes....we don't like recoil, our eyes suck, whatever the reason..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted September 21, 2002 Author Share Posted September 21, 2002 I'm with Erik on this one. More divisions just waters down the match. We wind up with a very few shooters in the new divisions (L10 and production) and they don't really have any idea of competition because the better shooters are all in Open or Limited. The people that want to stick with the sport all wind up buying hi-cap guns so that they can play with everyone else. If it brings in new shooters...Great! But that isn't happening here (sounds like it may be better in other areas). Lots of us started shooting Limited division with guns that would be L10 or Production now. It looks to me like most of the new shooters we see shooting single stacks or production guns would still come out to try the game just like we did (even if there weren't divisions specifically for them). Does it hurt competition? I think so. When we split up the 30 or 40 shooters at a local match into four different divisions we have fewer shooters in each division and less competition. I think that hurts. Just tryin' to keep the conversation lively, Kelly McCoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted September 21, 2002 Share Posted September 21, 2002 I co-founded IPSC45, one of only 4 clubs in the entire state. Of our 23 members, I am the only one who has an open blaster. Only 2 of us have S_I Limited guns. The rest are single stacks or plastic. If it wasn't for L10 and Production, we wouldn't even have the club. Approximately 80 per cent of the shooters in our state shoot L10 or a Production gun. L10 and Prod. are drawing new shooters and new blood to our sport. Those divisions need our support not bashing. Those of you who think the divisions water the sport down are coming from an entirely different perspective, perhaps older established clubs. It would be interesting to contact the USPSA office and see what per cent of new members shoot in the new divisions. I almost forgot, for what I paid for my new snowmobile I could buy a top line single stack, open gun, and limited gun. Of course, my walleye boat cost more than all of my other toys combined. (Edited by Ron Ankeny at 9:19 pm on Sep. 20, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshua Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Someone at the local shooting club mentioned that in a couple of more years we will all be shooting in limited 10, that is 10 rounds max for all divisions. I've heard someone said that 8 years ago in California and for some reason them hi cap mags are still available but at a higher cost. I'm not really sure how much more we can improve on the equipment. jmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Hmm, interesing post. As a production shooter, in which I have a great deal of fun, i occasionally yearn for the big-stick, red dot. But I like the challenge of shooting the standard pistol, as my rewards are more internal. And the mental gyrations to figuring out a stage that (usually) is set up with 6 targets in an array..hehehe. Mastering that aspect of the game is my challenge. As for the cost to fun ratio, well, i use my golf analogy. i pay good dollars to golf, and if I break down my score into costs per swing, I get a tremendous value. Why pay top dollar to go and shoot below par and get out quicker? Maybe i'll change classes, maybe i won't, but i'll continue to have good fun the whole time, whether O/L shooters think i should be there or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Bacus Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 The separation of Open and Limited makes sense to me. I don't want to compete against someone shooting a compensated gun with a dot sight (I shoot a .45 Para, limited), but do we really need other divisions? (L10, Production)?? Why? Do these divisions add anything to our sport? I don't mean to flame you here but what you seem to be saying is that since you shoot a high cap Limited gun you appreciate not having to compete against shooters who you percive to have better (more competitive) equipment but, you don't see the need for a seperate division for those who's equipment is less competitive. We already have classifications. If you aren't intersted in winning the match you are only shooting against shooters of equal ability. So someone who can get 18 rounds in a magazine edges you because you had to reload 3 times and he only had to reload once. Is that really a problem? Your classication is based on your overall performance, so is his. What can you do with your equipment? (That sounds bad, but you know what I mean.) Doesn't this argument also hold true for you? Why be concerned that your Limited Para is less competitve than an Open Gun, will you not be classed against Open shooters who's match performance is equal to your own? We have a lot of new shooters who begin in L10 or Production division, but most of them who stay with the sport very long wind up with a high-cap pistol. Very few stick with the other divisions. It looks to me like most of the people shooting L10 or production in the major matches are doing it because they think they have a better chance of winning (fewer competitors = better prizes). Have we really gained anything with L10 and Production divisions? The answer to your question is the first seven words in your comment before it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Does anybody really think it's anything but ridiculous to force some new shooter with, say, a stock G34 and 10 rounders to go head to head with the GM and his cosmic blaster? Want to address the dilution issue? Keep the divisions, but ditch the classes. No more cupie dolls for coming 27th place. If anybody thinks IPSC is expensive, I urge them to price out buying an airplane. First, pony up $30,000 to $350,000. Then pay $250/mo for a hangar, followed by another $250+/mo for insurance (owners of some antiques can only be insured by Lloyds of London - I kid you not), factor in another $100-150/mo in maintenance costs. After all that's done, you get to pay $3 for a gallon of gas and $3-4/quart for oil, both of which you will use in copious quantities. Need sparkplugs? Get ready to cough up $15 EACH! ...and none of this includes all the costs for medical exams, recertification, parachutes, tires, radios, yadda yadda yadda.... A racegun and ammunition start to look pretty damned economical. E (Edited by EricW at 1:05 pm on Sep. 22, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titandriver Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Hah!! If you think airplanes are expensive, try horses! I can buy two Limcat full-house Open guns for the price of one saddle, TWENTY Limcat Open guns for the price of one above average cutting horse, FIFTY Limcat Open guns for the price of a barn/arena, and the list goes on and on and on ............ Yep, shootin' IPSC is actually pretty damn cheap, and you can always put your gun in the safe for a long time and never have to spend another nickel on it 'til you use it again. Not so with our horses. And what goes in always comes out & needs to be cleaned up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 Tim! Welcome to the club. Now I can stop repeating all the stuff you've told me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 "More divisions just waters down the match. We wind up with a very few shooters in the new divisions (L10 and production) ...." Again, depends on the club - and the match. I sit here typing on my way home from a match at Renton Fish & Game Club in which we literally had over twice as many Lim-10 shooters as either Open or Limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshua Posted September 22, 2002 Share Posted September 22, 2002 We should just have Open class for the racing fanatics, Limited 10 and production. Seriously, then it won't be so divided, most people that get's into limited that can't or won't spend the absurd prices of pre-ban mags are the ones filing up L10 division. It will just be up to the ROs to count shots to keep everyone honest in shooting L10 division and production. josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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