Equipment Race

[Ron Ankeny]

joshua:

Gosh, I have over $1000.00 in hi cap mags, now I need to load them down to 10 rounds. Ouch.

[Chuck D]

L10 and Production Division are needed for two very important reasons. 1st. It brings SOME of the people whom own IDPA legal equiptment to IPSC where they'll shoot quite a bit more ammo at an IPSC match than say at their local IDPA match and come back to IPSC shooting. Secondly, 10 round magazines are the only LEGAL magazines you can purchase. Yes you can buy pre ban hi-caps and yes you can buy replacement tubes ( some of you won't admit it but you build NEW mags with those post ban replacement only tubes) but some of us who live in N.J. N.Y. Calif, Mass. and Hawaii, 10 rounds is the ONLY game in town. What watered down the sport was USPSA's refusal to deal with the passage of the 1994 Crime Bill and it's effect on our sport.

[Billf]

3K for any weapon is cheap if you consider the amount of funds spent in getting good with it (in my opinion the skill level of “B“ is good). Why is it that everyone wants to make everyone equal or a winner? We are not equal nor are we all winners. Most  will never be a RL, BE, JB, TJ just to name a few. But you know what? We can get good enough to insure that those named above won’t go to sleep with some of our skill levels shooting the match. Hell I know, some amateurs put the pressure on these guys and make them sweat. Those  who do, did not  get there by making excuses.  

When I started shooting this game I shot what I already had,  S&W 59 9mm. There where no red dots or super high caps, but spookum race guns with compensators where out for a few years. There where race holsters Ernie Hill was the one to have, I shot a thumb-break Bianchi model 19, because that is what I had.  I shot heads up with this gear for a year, then I took a step up and bought a .45 but still shot from the same holster, cause the gun fit.  I was poor, I spent what money i had on ammo. That was the days when IPSC was the fastest growing sport in the Nation. Whats so different today? I doubt it is the equipment.  Could it be that USPSA is  trying to make everyone happy?

IDPA is an entry level game and by design should be, that is not bad as a matter of fact it is good. In my opinion USPSA will draw quality shooters from any discipline regaurdless if we try to or not, because this is where the best shooters are. We play with the best equipment we can get away with. We play with equipment that allows us to perform at the top levels and to experiment with our skills. The sky is our limit. Of course there is room for the beginner in our sport but leave it at the club level.

There is no longer a IPSC/USPSA club in my area. The State Championships or Section Championships they call them today are reduced to a drawing for the shoot offs because they want to make some less skilled and undedicated shooters happy. All in the name of making the playing field equal. Well, guess what, the last couple of years attendance is way down. None of the past State Champions even bothered to shoot this year. Not even a letter “M” shooter showed up. I guess  they succeeded in making everyone equal. Is my State different from others?

How many folks (percentage wise) whom reached “A” skill level or higher no longer shoot matches? And why? That might be an interesting  statistic and question.

What is USPSA doing to keep highly skilled amateurs in the game?

My thoughts

Bill

[mike4045]

I switched to a Glock 35 two years ago to get out of limited. I was way to dependent on capacity. I get my payoff when the overalls come out  and I am above alot of limited and open shooters.

I have a desire to go to open but not until I get my A card for prod or lim 10. My reward to myself. Our club has about 8 to 10 IDPA shooteres who are now regular IPSC shooters also. If it was not for them our club would have most likely died.

Learn to shoot what you have and can afford and then move up in eqpt later. My 10 yr old daughter is starting with my Glock 17 carry gun.

Mike

[JFD]

While a few months ago I was asking if L-10 was dead or not, these days L-10 and Production make up the majority of our shooters.  Limited is much stronger than Open right now(seems to be the goal for any division upgrades), with only a few older guys hanging on to their red dots and comps.  I don't really know why a lot of guys made the switch, but personally speaking I find a 10 round mag to add to the challenge(read: fun) of a lot of stages.  It doesn't hurt that I can buy a handful of them for the price of a single illegal mag made from "replacement" parts.

We have 15 - 17 shooters, IDPA shoots the Sunday before us with 50+ shooters.  I'm doing my best to attract these guys to just a single match, knowing they will be hooked, or somehow defective if they aren't.  

The main reason these guys are telling me they never tried USPSA?  Those $3000 guns.  I push L-10 and Production and suddenly I see a lot more interest.

As I start my advertising campaign to increase our number of local shooters, Limited will be barely mentioned, Open mentioned not at all, with all the focus on L-10 and Production.  New shooters are the only thing that will keep our local match alive.  Any attitude that they are lame for not wanting to shoot head to head against race guns is simply going to drive them away.  I don't think USPSA can afford any attitude right now with IDPA ready and willing to take any shooters we manage to drive off.  

The thing I don't agree with is any form of lottery for prizes.  People who need that just might have a character flaw of some kind that can't be cured that easily.

I could handle no divisions, but it's maybe slightly cooler to win L-10 than to just be 9th overall, even if I do manage to beat a few Limited shooters.  

[Billf]

Top of the line IDPA weapon cost nearly 3K . Which is what the top IDPA shooter here is using.

The top IDPA shooter here is a 4 time IPSC State overall Champ. and 6+time State limited champ. He still considers himself an IPSC shooter but instead of teaching IPSC newbies he is teaching IDPA newbies.

The IPSC powers at be here had a drawing for the slots to this years USPSA Nationals. No wonder top shooters are disgusted.  

The IDPA matches here cost more then the IPSC matches did, they shoot less and stand around more.

I know the best shooters are in IPSC, but I also know that won’t last long the way things are going, their migrating or dropping out.

How many “A” skill level and up IPSC shooters no longer shoot IPSC and why? What is IPSC doing to keep these highly skilled amateurs?

I like to shoot lots for my money. I hate standing around and waiting  only to shoot 6 shots. But it seems as most people disagree with me. Should IPSC change and be like IDPA. I don’t think so. I think that once IDPA folks shooting skill level increase they will be looking at IPSC for more  intense shooting. The self-defense training that IDPA offers stops at the beginner level and those there for the training will realize that advanced self-defense training will have to be accessed elsewhere. Some will migrate to IPSC for advanced shooting skill training and testing, others will drop out. But it wouldn’t be the first time that I have been wrong.

Have I got answers or attitude? I don’t think so, just sharing my thoughts.

Bill

[Jake Di Vita]

When I started, I started by shooting IDPA. Now, as I am much more skilled than when I began, I look towards shooting IPSC more as it in my opinion is more of a challenge and theres much more competition. I think whenever a shooter reaches a certain level, they look for something harder to test themselves with, which is why many people who started out shooting IDPA are now shooting a lot of IPSC too.

[Flexmoney]

BillF,

Interesting points.  I wonder if it is a local thing.  Seems like some of the Ipsc shooter that have been around a dozen years or so were fed up and went to IDPA (I know a good one that was having a race gun built...by the time the smith got it to him his new comped gun was obsolete)

Around here (Ohio), I think we have some young blood that is bringing the USPSA stuff back...Production and Lim10 seem to help.  We also have a couple of good clubs...that are gettng better.

[Bill]

I have been shooting "Combat Pistol" for over 20 years.  Since before USPSA when there was only IPSC. I switched to IDPA when it came along because I was tired of the arms race. Now I am shooting USPSA again because I can shoot in production, limited 10 or, my favorite, revolver. If there was still only Open & Limited I probably wouldn't have come back. I can now shoot USPSA with my IDPA equipment. I have plenty of IDPA matches to shoot without shooting USPSA.

In my opinion the biggest difference between IDPA & USPSA is that the best "shooter" will win in IDPA, where in USPSA the best shooter NEEDS the latest equipment to win - - - - Unless - - - they are shooting in production. limited 10 or revolver.

Having said that, I recently drug my old Limited Para 45 out of the safe. I got some Dawson base pads & have a new mag well ready to install. 18 rounds of 45. I feel the need for speed. The mag well will fit in the IDPA box & I have some short mags. I might get good if I shoot it in both sports.

I even looked at my Nastoff 45 comp gun. Only a single stack. Sigh.

Bill Nesbitt

[charles]

Bill, if you start shooting a 45 in IDPA I am going to be in big trouble.  You allready beat most people with your revolver.  

[Steve Anderson]

It is sobering to shoot a good solid production match and have Bill Nesbitt's name above mine, shooting revolver...very motivating.

I'm here because of production. Plain and simple.

Start with a local pin match, progress to steel, try idpa with a holster bought 10 min. before the first match, do OK, someone says if ya wanna shoot more try this IP-Sick stuff. OK.

The first ipsc course of fire I ever shot ended with three head shot targets behind a wall at arm's length. It took me ten minutes to stop smiling.

Open might be my next move, somebody wants to sell me a gun...I will shoot a little lim 10 with the 40 Beretta next year just to see what major scoring does to my classifier scores.

Limited has little appeal for me, if I'm going hi-cap I want a damn dot and a smokestack to go with it.

SA

[John Heiter]

I'm still relatively new to the sport (I've only been shooting USPSA for about a year now) so please take this for whatever it's worth.  Also, keep in mind that I'm only talking about local no-prize-table matches because when you put cash/prizes in the mix it becomes a totally different sport.

It just seems that a lot of people talk about the current "state of the sport" based primarily on their own experience at their local club matches.  I hear people with no Lim10/Prod shooters at their local club wanting to do away with divisions that do nothing more than let a few shooters boost their egos by winning a division no one else competes in.  I hear others at clubs with heavy Lim10/Prod interest talk about how the new shooters attracted to these cheaper divisions are the only things that keep their clubs alive.  

It reminds me of the first time I heard of a "Cooper Tunnel" being used in USPSA competition.  Being a gravity challenged shooter myself, I can't imagine anything less fun than trying to run, shoot, and stay crouched down like that but I understand there are other clubs that use them and love them.  Most of our local matches are short range speed shoots but I hear that out west you get into a lot more distance/accuracy matches.  I guess my point is that just because I don't use it or enjoy it locally doesn't mean it's a bad thing.  

You may think that having seven classes for each division waters down the competition.  As a low C shooter, I feel that it allows me to go to a club I've never been to before and still have some idea of who my peers are.  Call me crazy but "High C" is an achievement for me and trying to get to it leads to improvement.  If I want to be able to bench press 500 pounds I can try to do it every weekend but all I'm going to wind up with is a concave chest.  If I start out with a goal of 300 and then 350 and then maybe 400 I can improve, I can track my progress, and I keep from getting discouraged along the way.  If you're already competing for a top three overall finish at your local club then that's great but what does it hurt if those below you want to set their own personal goals and can get some recognition for achieving them.  I supposed I'm just advocating live and let live because USPSA is so many different things to so many different shooters, who's to say anything in this sport is wrong or right.  Find a division that makes you happy and just focus on punching some holes in paper.  

As far as the equipment race goes, of course it's an equipment race and there's no way anyone will ever stop that.  I like to fish and fishing in a farm pond is about as non-competitive as it gets but you can rest assured that if we're fishing together and you catch more than me using a red spinner bait, next time I'm at the lake I'll have some red spinners in my box.  Can anyone think of a sport that doesn't involve equipment envy leading to a race?  I can't.  We may both shoot production but the gun is only part of it.  How many of you on this forum have a pair of Nike Landsharks? Royal Robbins pants?  Maybe a Tournament Series range bag?  Do they make you a better shooter?  Who knows but you can bet I want some.

Oh well, just my two cents.  You do what you want to do.

John Heiter

High A Class Bream Fisherman

[cpty1]

Patches, I enjoyed your post for the content, but especially for that "High A Class Bream Fisherman" tag line.  That's a good one.  Thanks for the laugh.

[Bill]

Patches,

That was a good post. Thank you.

Bill Nesbitt

[Duane Thomas]

Patches,

Nicely put!

[jkmccoy]

Amen Patches,

Although I started this thread, you have expressed many of my thoughts far more clearly than I. Obviously the new divisions are working better at other clubs than they are here. Thus they seem to be good for the sport (better than I would have predicted from my observations).  I assume that none of us would be here if we didn't love this sport, and that all of us would accept any changes that are overall/long term good for the sport. I will.

Cheers,

Fry them bream up crisp. The tails are my favorite part.

[Billf]

Patches,

Good post, you put some thought into it. You and I agree on lots of things, so do most of you here. I'm not here to argue, just  offering, maybe a different point of view.

Three weeks ago I was chasing the Silver Salmon, I had a 39 buck Fred Meyer pole, 30 bucks in gear and  15 bucks worth of herring. See, I'm a poor boy.  Guess who caught  the biggest and the most. By one of your points of view, my richer buddies would be rushing out to Fred Meyers and tossing those 200 buck poles and several hundred dollars in red spinners.  Hehehe, I love doing that (I guess luck had nothing to do with it.....)

Not everyone gets involved in the equipment race. Especially poor boys like me. I never had any of them high spookum guns until recently (last 3 years). I shot what I could afford and I gotta tell ya , I could compete in IPSC, IRC and the handgunner. I never once complained that top shooters where beating me cause of equipment, they did not complain either the few times I put the hurt on them.

It took a lot of sweat and sacrifices to get those  cool letter grades on my USPSA card . The same grade on the IDPA card was a given due to the skills I learned in IPSC. It took a lot of time, money and sacrifice (ask my wife) to put together those 3k each IPSC  and IDPA guns and gear.  I had the grade for several years but now that I have the gear  I don’t shoot much matches any more (I practice a lot however). When I do shoot on the local level (within 500 mile) people would ask me what I'm shooting, when I tell them some would sigh and say “good I got a chance to win my division ”. Now what kinda attitude is that, they want a win with no competition. Tell me why would they even bothered to show up?

The equipment race is an excuse in my opinion. What it takes to get that high letter grade is sweat and dedication. You don’t have to be rich. If you get that grade just on the equipment crutch or grand bagging you do not have the skill, just the title, and that degrades everyone else who earned it.

As for the best shooter winning, well, that is not always true. Sometimes its the one who makes the least mistakes.

What is USPSA doing to keep highly skill amateurs in the game? I don’t know, but inconsistency between matches at the championship level is not the key. Rewarding mediocracy is not the key either.

The equipment race will always be , but you don’t have to play that game to play. Just my thoughts.

Bill

[jhgtyre]

Of course we need other divisions.  Heavyweight boxers don't fight flyweights for a reason.  There is a disparity that cannot be overcome.  The same is true in many sports.  You don't see stock car guys racing with Indy cars, go-karts, or hopped up Chevy Nova's.  They each have their place.  They each provide people with different incomes and interests a place to participate.  

The guy who has to shoot (or wants to shoot) his carry gun isn't going to be competitive with the guy (or gal) who shoots a 3K dollar space blaster.  Of course there are examples of those who practice more, have more skill, whatever, who beat the big dogs with a stock gun so what?!?!  If you want the sport to continue, if you want old shooters to stay and new shooters to join, you have to give them someplace to play.  For those of you who don't want divisions take your stock gun and sign up in Open division at the next match.

-jhgtyre

[Shipster]

jhgtyre.... I like it when people get straight to the point.

"For those of you who don't want divisions take your stock gun and sign up in Open division at the next match."

No!.... I LOVE IT!!!  

[John Heiter]

Bill,

You make some good points yourself.  Most of the time the equipment race is completely unnecessary and sometimes it's even detrimental.  Your buddies with the $200 poles remind me that I spent the last 8 months trying to explain to my buddies why my $185 speed holster was better than their far less expensive models despite the fact that it completely didn't work with the rounded trigger guard on my Para.  Sure it was fast but it felt like I was putting my gun in a bucket the way it rattled around in there.  Even so, I used it for almost a year because I was too proud to admit I'd wasted about a hundred bucks trying to one-up my friends.  

Now I'm using an old beat up rig a buddy gave me for free because he had made so many modifications to it that he couldn't even sell it on E-bay and man does it work great!  I just hope no one at the range notices the switch.  If they ask I'll probably tell them that I got this one for free so I'm just "trying it out" for a while.  Ain't pride a b*%ch?

John

[Billf]

We can have different opinions and still be friends, Eh?  

I think USPSA should have divisions  Open, Limited, Production and Revolver.  I think that everyone shooting a MAJOR match should be  of the same class, COMPETITOR. Classifications  should be something that individual clubs can administer and use at club matches. Tittles of M and GM otta only be earned by performing at a major match where at least 2 top dogs are present. Of course I have no problem with Woman, Child  and Man categories.

I do have a problem with a 21 year old being in the Child category.

I think that Slots to Nationals should be given away in order of finish at a State/ Section Championships and Area Championships, and if more then one slot is available, top Woman and then top Child then back to order of finish etc..

I think that USPSA needs to be more consistent and not change things so much in such short period of time. Of course when laws of the land change then that is a different story. Changes should only be done in lets say 7 to 10 year periods unless it is a safety concern.

INDY CAR = IPSC, STOCK CAR= IDPA, GO-Kart = IRC/ICORE, Rev folks don‘t get mad at this one I recall going to the drags and seeing these 9 and 10 sec go karts, dang where they cool. Fly weights, well there is bullseye (don’t get mad either folks, cause many of the shooters above can’t shoot them tiny little groups) . Got a bad knee but have a need for speed, there is the steel challenge or the handgunner. And then there are Pins, Silhouettes etc.. Just trying to make a point don't take it literally. USPSA does not have to please everyone cause it can’t, but it has a nitch that needs to be filled and we must market that. USPSA will always continue and it will keep growing especially if we stop diluting it.

I would bet (remember Im poor, so the bet wouldn’t be hugh) that there are quite a few shooters that can win a match shooting open with a limited gun. Hell I recall someone who won a Nationals with a broken leg. I witnessed a rev shooter smoke a open bottom feeder for the win at a major championship. Oh and for you old guys, well there was this fella who could tapp them there targets faster then most of the young guys. And then there is this one fella who is King brides maid and respected by all in the shooting community. Don’t forget them women whom probably beat most everyone here at one time or another. Or that 17 year old that showed everyone how to do it at a World Shoot. Now why the hell  should someone less deserving be put on the same pedestal as these fine shooters,  without earning it.........

Just  my thoughts.

Bill

[jhgtyre]

So shoot heads up in open.  Almost anything, within the few limits that are set,  is allowed.  Box stock Glock, revo, whatever you want.  Then you will be going head to head just like you want.  Unless of course it is going to get to you that someone else is doing just what THEY want in one of those other divisions....

[Chuck D]

Divisions and Classifications are not only useful but NECESSARY. Yes, it would be great to lump all the shooters in a winner take all type event.....great for the GM's at least. I'm not a GM ( just made "M" in Limited) and I have nothing against them,hope to be one some day but in raw numbers they are olny a small percentage of the membership of USPSA. We as a sport can not ignore the bulk of the membership in regards to either classification or division requirements. If you do,theywill go somewhere else. What's so hard to understand about creating a place for competitors with similar skill levels and equiptment to compete either on a local,state or national level. I spend a great deal of my IPSC time shooting in L10 division and I plan a bit of Production division activity this coming summer. All I want for my membership dollar is a division to shoot in,a match to go to and to shoot to the best of my ability without having my balls broken by someone who thinks my being there with my 10 round gun or my Glock waters down THEIR sport.