Is the Zone enough?

[leam]

I shoot slow. Even without an equipment mafunction I'll average twice as long as the A/B class shooters. In other stuff I'm slow as well. At one scuba class a fellow student told me no one started getting ready until I was haf-way done. So the question is, if I can reach a Zone state, should I expect any improvement? Or do I just accept that I'll get more shooting time than anyone else?

Leam

[BSeevers]

Learn to shoot, move, plan, faster.

The Zone is icing on the cake and not a cure-all. Its a way to maximize what you already have, its not a "S" on your chest or I shoulda said "Z".

Edited April 10, 2010 by BSeevers

[cyburg]

The best thing to remeber is smoooooooth is fast.

Otherwise, go at the speed you need to in order to hit all A's. Once you feel comfortable and smoooooooth you should be able to naturaly pick up the pace because you are aquiring and hitting the A's faster.

Another thing that can and will help you is to train and shoot with shooters that are better than you are. It will help in giving you a push or motivation you may need.

By the way, do you train by yourself?

With better shooters?

Ask around and find out how and where others train and try and work in with them. Even if they train in their garage.

I find myself training in front or a mirror when I am working on presentatations.

[Paul Santiago]

With better shooters?

THIS is a big help. Try to get on a squad with shooters a class or two above you. Watch and learn how they move and break down a stage. You'll not be able to go as fast as them. Train wrecks happen when you try so take your time and as has been said many times here, "Shoot A's as fast as possible". Progression comes with time.

[Jake Di Vita]

Nothing replaces hard consistent work.

[GrumpyOne]

Speed comes with repetition. Do it over and over and over and over and over......You will get faster.

[Chris iliff]

I kinda get the impression that you just take your time with everything. Or, you just have a pace when dong things slower than most people. I say that because you give a scuba example. Are you thinking about every step in every process you do, no matter the activity? Are you doing anything on autopilot? Could you move through a stage, without shooting, on the heels of an A or B shooter? I am curious as to what are your processes.

Jake is spot on. You know, you could set 3 or 4 targets up and a box. Start outside the box, maybe 5-10ft. move to the box and engage targets. Basically, this is one tiny section of any stage. This should be done with a timer. Then you work your butt off getting the time down. You could have 4-5 scenarios, where you are moving to the box from different locations/angles, from right, diagonal from right, straight on, diagonal from left, and from left. I would change the target locations every new trip to the range, but I would NOT change the distance I moved to the box. Good luck!

You can save a lot of ammo by doing this dryfire and par time on a timer. PM me if you want.

Edited to add: You describe yourself as "chronically slow", do you have any kind of physical impairments?

Edited April 11, 2010 by fourtrax

[Aglifter]

Not sure how much carry over there would be but, back in the mists of pre-history, I was a competitive strongman and powerlifter. The fastest moving people, as a group, ever recorded are Olympic lifters. I believe a top level lifter performing a snatch lift is the fastest human movement -- After working on snatch lifts for awhile, you could feel your hands get faster. It's hard to explain, but the speed became noticeable. Skipping rope would help w. footwork, but didn't cause the same noticeable increase in speed.

I suspect, however, that all but the very best shooters are held back more by how fast they can acquire sights, etc, rather than how fast they can move their hands.

[Jake Di Vita]

+100 on the snatch.

Oly lifting is gymnastics with a bar.

[Jman]

if I can reach a Zone state, should I expect any improvement?

Only if it includes more points in less time

[leam]

Delayed response, I've been at the SC Section and just got back on-line a few minutes ago. Great match! A friend and I discussed starting the "Lounge Club". Our motto is "Life is too short to shoot fast!"

Handicapps? No, just large and unathletic. I've been athletic in years gone by so it's possible with the bod God gave me. Mentally I hash and rehash most everything a few dozen times. I don't train with others, but when I shoot most everyone is higher ranked than my 35%/D self. Part of the repitition seems to be a strong dislike of failure. Can't stand making mistakes so it's much easier to be overly methodical. Sadly, still making mistakes. 2 No shoots, 6 Mikes. I'll go figure up the percent of stage points in a bit.

To answer the "how fast can I move" question, I was generally able to stay with the folks I RO'd Friday. My muscles can chug along but not with much endurance. Yet. That's one of the things I'm going to resolve.

Let me mentally churn through these notes for a while. You've given me a few things to think about.

Thanks!

Leam

[leam]

Aglifter,

As an addendum, I've been lifting weights as recomended by folks on another forum. Have been reading the book "Starting Strength" and working on those lifts. Easier lifitng th ebook than the barbell, though.

Leam

[Jake Di Vita]

Excellent start. I've been doing linear progression myself for the last 3 months. Gained 35 pounds of bodyweight so far lol.

What were your starting numbers and what are your current numbers on everything?

Height, weight, age, and time training too if you don't mind.

[leam]

I've gained a bit of body weight, but it's been from travelling, not saying "no thank you", and comfort food eating...

Started with no weight, just going for form. Moved up to the 45# bar. I have a bad back that has required surgery and industrial strength meds. The last relapse kept me on the floor for two weeks. So "nice and slow" is a good motto.

In that I'm learning, and we don't have a squat rack, some exercises are limited. I do 5 sets of 5, with the first 2-3 being warm-ups and then hitting the working sets for the last 2. Of the recommended exercises, I'm still on the 45# bar for squat, power clean, and press. Bench press working set is 185 and dead-lift was 225 but that was a bit past where I can do 5 in a set. General work out is the weights, adjusted pull-ups ( I want to be able to do pull-ups) and then ~20 minutes of treadmill at 3.4 MPH, which is where I hit a 135 Heart rate. I'll be 49 shortly and weigh in at about 270 and stand up at 6 feet and a few grey hairs. Not sure on the body fat composition but it's not nearly where it should be. Have gotten lazy for a few weeks but will pack the gym bag for tomorrow.

Thoughts?

Leam

[Jake Di Vita]

Based on my experience, this is what I would suggest:

1) Find a squat rack as soon as humanly possible. This is an essential piece of equipment. It would be worth it to not eat lunch for a month to buy one if it comes down to it.

2) What is the nature of your back injury? Is there any way you can video your squat? Do you lift with a belt and weightlifting shoes?

3) Starting Strength does not involve 5 sets of 5 in any exercise. If you haven't yet finished the book, that is goal number 1. The programming aspects are quite significant to the success of the program. Especially for someone of your age. (Not a knock at you, just significant because of your diminished ability to recover).

4) Endurance work after strength training greatly blunts the adaptation received from the strength training. Unfortunately the body has a finite ability to recover, so anything that takes away from your body adapting between workouts is extremely detrimental to overall progress. Strength before strength endurance.

5) A caloric excess is not needed for you to make gains. It is very important that you are getting adequate levels of protein. Go for at least 1 gram per pound of bodyweight, primarily from sources of meat. Severely limit your carbohydrate intake and supplement that with lots of good fats and veggies. This will create an environment very conducive to lean body mass growth and fat reduction. Your diet is pass/fail based on your protein intake.

6) Here is a link to Rip's forum. If you have any questions, this is the place to look. Rip is awesome at this stuff, he also lacks patience for silly BS. This is both informative and entertaining.

[leam]

Based on my experience, this is what I would suggest:

1) Find a squat rack as soon as humanly possible. This is an essential piece of equipment. It would be worth it to not eat lunch for a month to buy one if it comes down to it.

2) What is the nature of your back injury? Is there any way you can video your squat? Do you lift with a belt and weightlifting shoes?

3) Starting Strength does not involve 5 sets of 5 in any exercise. If you haven't yet finished the book, that is goal number 1. The programming aspects are quite significant to the success of the program. Especially for someone of your age. (Not a knock at you, just significant because of your diminished ability to recover).

4) Endurance work after strength training greatly blunts the adaptation received from the strength training. Unfortunately the body has a finite ability to recover, so anything that takes away from your body adapting between workouts is extremely detrimental to overall progress. Strength before strength endurance.

5) A caloric excess is not needed for you to make gains. It is very important that you are getting adequate levels of protein. Go for at least 1 gram per pound of bodyweight, primarily from sources of meat. Severely limit your carbohydrate intake and supplement that with lots of good fats and veggies. This will create an environment very conducive to lean body mass growth and fat reduction. Your diet is pass/fail based on your protein intake.

6) Here is a link to Rip's forum. If you have any questions, this is the place to look. Rip is awesome at this stuff, he also lacks patience for silly BS. This is both informative and entertaining.

Hey Jake, thanks! Quick notes as I dash off to work.

1. Will adjust schedule to use squat rack at base gym. We're YMCA members for the nonce, and they have a bench there. Smith machine instead of squat rack. But I have access to the gym on base so to the rack I will go.

2. Herniated disk years ago. Currently muscle spasm prome as trunk strength is low in ratio to upper body weight. Work required sitting at a desk all day does not help. No video yet, and no to both the others. Use flat sneakers for gym time.

3. Maybe I misunderstood the programming, but when I read SS before it seemed to suggest warm-up weights that were significantly lower than working set, and then 2-3 working sets. It also recommended adding a warm up set if you were older. Hence my 5x5 number. I'll go back and see what I missed.

4. If I understand what you mean, not doing cardio and strength? I have several cardio risk factors; genetics, weight, former smoker. The cardio is added to keep me burning calories and exercising the heart. My son is 14 and I'd like to be able to keep up with his energetic little self for a while.

5. We are moving the family to a Zone dietary plan. Difficult in that we're also moving to have to spend less on everything until the bill to income ratio gets fixed. No skimping on basic protien intake but you seem to be suggesting much higher.

6. Will read Rip later. He does have a way with words.

Again, thanks!

Leam

[Jake Di Vita]

1. Will adjust schedule to use squat rack at base gym. We're YMCA members for the nonce, and they have a bench there. Smith machine instead of squat rack. But I have access to the gym on base so to the rack I will go.

Cool. The smith machine would be much more useful if it were melted down and used for re-bar.

2. Herniated disk years ago. Currently muscle spasm prome as trunk strength is low in ratio to upper body weight. Work required sitting at a desk all day does not help. No video yet, and no to both the others. Use flat sneakers for gym time.

Squatting and deadlifting correctly should help a huge amount with this.

3. Maybe I misunderstood the programming, but when I read SS before it seemed to suggest warm-up weights that were significantly lower than working set, and then 2-3 working sets. It also recommended adding a warm up set if you were older. Hence my 5x5 number. I'll go back and see what I missed.

Using more warm up sets is definitely cool. SS protocol calls for 3 works sets at 5 reps after you've warmed up. The power clean is 5 sets of 3 reps.

4. If I understand what you mean, not doing cardio and strength? I have several cardio risk factors; genetics, weight, former smoker. The cardio is added to keep me burning calories and exercising the heart. My son is 14 and I'd like to be able to keep up with his energetic little self for a while.

If you are using the correct weight for your work sets, your heart rate will be elevated. I could actually spend the next 30 minutes addressing this paragraph, but suffice it to say you will be better served by focusing on strength and tightening up the diet than spending time on the treadmill right now.

5. We are moving the family to a Zone dietary plan. Difficult in that we're also moving to have to spend less on everything until the bill to income ratio gets fixed. No skimping on basic protien intake but you seem to be suggesting much higher.

I have a lot of experience with both the Zone and Paleo. Not only with myself, but other clients (including my parents, who are a bit older than you). I REALLY suggest you go Paleo instead of Zone.

[leam]

4. If I understand what you mean, not doing cardio and strength? I have several cardio risk factors; genetics, weight, former smoker. The cardio is added to keep me burning calories and exercising the heart. My son is 14 and I'd like to be able to keep up with his energetic little self for a while.

If you are using the correct weight for your work sets, your heart rate will be elevated. I could actually spend the next 30 minutes addressing this paragraph, but suffice it to say you will be better served by focusing on strength and tightening up the diet than spending time on the treadmill right now.

5. We are moving the family to a Zone dietary plan. Difficult in that we're also moving to have to spend less on everything until the bill to income ratio gets fixed. No skimping on basic protien intake but you seem to be suggesting much higher.

I have a lot of experience with both the Zone and Paleo. Not only with myself, but other clients (including my parents, who are a bit older than you). I REALLY suggest you go Paleo instead of Zone.

Not sure I'm with you on the weights alone vs weights and cardio. While a lifter might be better with just weight, I'm not yet in a strength position to be lifting more than I do. Cardio gets my heart rate back up and keeps it there for a while. I'm working A/B days and today's A day of squat (still with the bar only), bench, and dead lift were enough for me. More and I would have moved into sloppy and risky technique.

Read some on the Paleo. I don't mind some extra red meat in my Zone diet, but the paleo really doesn't follow. I'm not up for offal, humans have been working the land for a very long time, and hunter/gatherer eating doesn't seem practical. Wife is already stressing about how we can eat on what I bring home; doing so in a healthy manner is even harder.

Leam

[Jake Di Vita]

Not sure I'm with you on the weights alone vs weights and cardio. While a lifter might be better with just weight, I'm not yet in a strength position to be lifting more than I do. Cardio gets my heart rate back up and keeps it there for a while. I'm working A/B days and today's A day of squat (still with the bar only), bench, and dead lift were enough for me. More and I would have moved into sloppy and risky technique.

The purpose of Starting Strength is novice linear progression. This means increasing weights every workout. If you aren't doing this, you aren't doing Starting Strength. As far as weights vs. cardio - you can do whatever you want, but the idea that long slow distance is heart healthy just isn't true in practical application. If you're interested, I can point you towards plenty of information to start.

Read some on the Paleo. I don't mind some extra red meat in my Zone diet, but the paleo really doesn't follow. I'm not up for offal, humans have been working the land for a very long time, and hunter/gatherer eating doesn't seem practical. Wife is already stressing about how we can eat on what I bring home; doing so in a healthy manner is even harder.

So let me understand this. We have been eating as hunter-gatherers for millions of years and you believe 10,000 years of agriculture has changed our genome? How much research have you done on hunter-gatherer eating?

The money thing just doesn't compute for me. You can buy bulk meat for as low as $2 a pound from many places. Vegetables aren't that expensive, and neither are good fats. I spend less than $50 a week on food, and I eat over a pound of meat a day.

Again, ultimately, do what you want to do. Don't be surprised if you don't get good results though.

[CHA-LEE]

It sounds like you need to make a shift in your everyday life to doing things faster. If you apply doing EVERYTHING faster then it will also translate into doing things faster while shooting.

If you live a life style that allows you to do things at a sloths pace, why would you expect your actions to be any different after the buzzer goes off during a stage run?

I am sure that a Sloth can be in the “Zone” while doing something, but it’s still a Sloth so how much can you really expect?

Start small. When you go to pick up your keys off a table, night stand, or whatever do it aggressively and fast. Once you got that down, move onto something else, like your cell phone or grabbing a door knob or whatever you interact with multiple times a day. Sooner or later you will start to transition over to being more aggressive and faster with all of your movements. More importantly you will have the confidence to know that you CAN move quickly when you need to.

Edited April 12, 2010 by CHA-LEE

[benos]

Also train yourself to see faster. Pick 5 randomly spaced objects around the room (light switch, corner of a window, etc.) and practice by shifting a precise focus to each one as quickly as possible. Over and over for a while. Then pick different objects and repeat.

be

[leam]

Not sure I'm with you on the weights alone vs weights and cardio. While a lifter might be better with just weight, I'm not yet in a strength position to be lifting more than I do. Cardio gets my heart rate back up and keeps it there for a while. I'm working A/B days and today's A day of squat (still with the bar only), bench, and dead lift were enough for me. More and I would have moved into sloppy and risky technique.

The purpose of Starting Strength is novice linear progression. This means increasing weights every workout. If you aren't doing this, you aren't doing Starting Strength. As far as weights vs. cardio - you can do whatever you want, but the idea that long slow distance is heart healthy just isn't true in practical application. If you're interested, I can point you towards plenty of information to start.

Hmm...reading the programming section, Rip talks about using cardio for warm-ups. Treadmill is probably not on his ideal list, but it's what I have for the moment. Unless you thought that I was meaning cardio instead of weight? The plan is A days on Monday and Thursday, and B days on Tuesday and Friday. A is squat, bench press, and dead lift. B is squat, power clean (as I learn it), and press. I can just move the tread mill to the start and take advantage of that as both cardio and warm-up.

Read some on the Paleo. I don't mind some extra red meat in my Zone diet, but the paleo really doesn't follow. I'm not up for offal, humans have been working the land for a very long time, and hunter/gatherer eating doesn't seem practical. Wife is already stressing about how we can eat on what I bring home; doing so in a healthy manner is even harder.

So let me understand this. We have been eating as hunter-gatherers for millions of years and you believe 10,000 years of agriculture has changed our genome? How much research have you done on hunter-gatherer eating?

My records show early humans were farmers, with livestock and having to till the land. The Paleo seems to lean towards more protien than the Zone, and less processed foods. Both sound good to me, and the protien will probably help my growing like a weed teenage son. However, I'm not fond of offal, beans cost much less than meat, and we do the best we can with what we have.

The money thing just doesn't compute for me. You can buy bulk meat for as low as $2 a pound from many places. Vegetables aren't that expensive, and neither are good fats. I spend less than $50 a week on food, and I eat over a pound of meat a day.

I get to feed a family of three, as well as one loving but cast off puppy, one stray cat, and two abandoned kittens. We have to spend less than your $50 per week per person; you'd be amazed at some of the coupon deals! Sadly, they are often more for the processed stuff. I've been looking around for a farmer's market sort of thing but haven't found one yet. We're new to the area so I've not found everything. We were helped out greatly by a forum member's wife; she suggested he not go hunting until some of the previous venison was taken care of. We're *still" find it in the freezer every now and again, and it's been greatly appreciated.

I'll go back to the programming section and see what else I can come up with. This was the first week back after six weeks off. So I should be able to make some decent gains and get close to where I was before. After that, we can see how well this linear theory holds up.

Leam

[Jake Di Vita]

Hmm...reading the programming section, Rip talks about using cardio for warm-ups. Treadmill is probably not on his ideal list, but it's what I have for the moment. Unless you thought that I was meaning cardio instead of weight? The plan is A days on Monday and Thursday, and B days on Tuesday and Friday. A is squat, bench press, and dead lift. B is squat, power clean (as I learn it), and press. I can just move the tread mill to the start and take advantage of that as both cardio and warm-up.

I have no problem with you using a treadmill to warm-up, but that was not the reason you stated you were doing it. It's the trying to get another work-out after the strength training that I was recommending against (for the time being).

My records show early humans were farmers, with livestock and having to till the land. The Paleo seems to lean towards more protien than the Zone, and less processed foods. Both sound good to me, and the protien will probably help my growing like a weed teenage son. However, I'm not fond of offal, beans cost much less than meat, and we do the best we can with what we have.

Well I don't really know what to say to that...I'm kind of curious where your records are that early hominids were farmers? The reason beans aren't part of the Paleo diet is because legumes are known gut irritants. Dog food is cheap too...but I wouldn't try feeding myself with it (or my dog for that matter). Here is a link to a research paper written by Dr. Loren Cordain (and others) and edited by the associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School. It's a good place to start.

I get to feed a family of three, as well as one loving but cast off puppy, one stray cat, and two abandoned kittens. We have to spend less than your $50 per week per person; you'd be amazed at some of the coupon deals! Sadly, they are often more for the processed stuff. I've been looking around for a farmer's market sort of thing but haven't found one yet. We're new to the area so I've not found everything. We were helped out greatly by a forum member's wife; she suggested he not go hunting until some of the previous venison was taken care of. We're *still" find it in the freezer every now and again, and it's been greatly appreciated.

When buying meat in bulk, Sam's or Costco are good choices. Not the best quality of meat, but like you said we do the best we can with what we have.

As for linear progression...it definitely works. Nearly 3 months ago I set several goals for a 1 rep max on all the lifts. I not only smashed those goals, I'm doing 5 reps of most of them.

Anyway as I said before, ultimately do what you want. This is just what I've learned from my own experience and training others. (FWIW, my Dad has dropped nearly 30 pounds in 2 months of strict Paleo and has made consistent progress on all his lifts for those 2 months. He's 55.)

[leam]

I have no problem with you using a treadmill to warm-up, but that was not the reason you stated you were doing it. It's the trying to get another work-out after the strength training that I was recommending against (for the time being).

You are correct. Treadmill afterwards kept the simple movements for when I was tired. However, warm-ups are more important.

Well I don't really know what to say to that...I'm kind of curious where your records are that early hominids were farmers? The reason beans aren't part of the Paleo diet is because legumes are known gut irritants. Dog food is cheap too...but I wouldn't try feeding myself with it (or my dog for that matter). Here is a link to a research paper written by Dr. Loren Cordain (and others) and edited by the associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School. It's a good place to start.

Genesis 1-4.

As for linear progression...it definitely works. Nearly 3 months ago I set several goals for a 1 rep max on all the lifts. I not only smashed those goals, I'm doing 5 reps of most of them.

Anyway as I said before, ultimately do what you want. This is just what I've learned from my own experience and training others. (FWIW, my Dad has dropped nearly 30 pounds in 2 months of strict Paleo and has made consistent progress on all his lifts for those 2 months. He's 55.)

My earlier efforts weren't serious linear progression. We'll see what it can do. How controlled was your dad's diet before you got a hold of him? If he went from the Zone to Paleo, then that's significant!

I can take Cha-Lee's and Brians suggestions to work and practice there. It was funny, last night, to watch myself and see how slow I really moved.

Leam

[Jake Di Vita]

Well suffice it to say we deviate from our ancestral foodways at our own peril.

It's obvious nothing I say will change your mind. In the future, I highly encourage you to try it for a month or two and see how you look, feel, and perform. That will be better evidence than any book you or I can cite.