Start position: parade rest

[Skydiver]

In a stage I'm dreaming of setting up a few months from now, I'm considering having the competitor starting in a parade rest position.

My concern is for the folks whose holsters are race holsters like a GhostHolster, a Guga Ribas, etc.

If the shooter bumps his/her gun with the strong arm as they get out of this position to do their draw, will there be a good chance of a dropped gun? And worse, I'm guessing that the physics of the drop will have the falling gun's muzzle pointing up range.

My questions are:

- Should I not even worry about this and leave it as the responsibility of the shooter?

- Would the disaster factor even be worse if the shooter starts out facing up range in parade rest, and they'll have to turn, and draw?

[kevin c]

That's not much different from any other alternative start position, and there are some, such as seated starts while holstered, or carrying/moving objects while holstered, that I've seen that were a whole lot more problematic. I'd say a turning start is the most likely to cause soiled drawers, and that's based just on the 180 issue, and not the "stance" (arm start position).

Really, if the holster isn't secure enough for such starts, the shooter should know to start locked.

The appendix position that's so popular in the Open and Limited Divisions actually gets the gun out of thw way in the stance you're proposing, and SS and Production holsters, while further back, are deep enough that they'll most likely tolerate an accidental bump prior to the draw.

One part of the rules worth pointing out explicily is that the start position/stance should not allow any contact with the gun. Not too much of a problem for an appendix draw position, more likely to cause SS and Production shooters to have to adjust consciously to comply, but, again, not a disadvantage within the Divisions, and not more unsafe, given the type of holsters.

I say go for it.

Edited March 20, 2010 by kevin c

[sfchorn]

The adage that comes to mind is: "If you have to ask......"

We had this discussion on our club forum.

I realize that ALL start positions have some degree of risk. Table starts, seated in chair starts, etc, all have a higher degree of risk than a "arms relaxed at sides" start, And I realize we do want to keep things from becoming boring. My best advice is leave the gimmicks alone. A good stage gives the competitor options on how to shoot, not how to best complete a non-shooting task.

Give the shooter options such as:

"Do I go for a marginally visible D zone hit from position A and save 1 second, or do I shoot the target from position B where I can see the entire A zone?"

"Do I take an open shot at the plate from 20 yards, or do I lean around a wall to take the shot at 10 yards?"

"Do I want to start/leave this position shooting at a popper, or do I shoot the paper target first/last?"

I'm sure there will be lots of folks on this forum who will not share my opinion, and that's okay. The diversity in USPSA is one of the things that makes the sport so interesting. That being said, I'm not someone who enjoys a "pull three aces from the deck of cards, pile the poker chips in the center of the table, then draw and engage targets" kind of stage.

Regardless of how well (or poorly) the stage is designed, the best shooters will always find a way to win.

[Flexmoney]

Then bring them to attention and have them sing the AF song.

[Nik Habicht]

If you're concerned about it -- a dropped gun -- could always start the shooter unloaded (safer, but doesn't get around the DQ issue) or start the shooter with the gun positioned on a table, or in a briefcase bolted to a table or barrel, or someplace else that isn't holstered....

[LPatterson]

That looks like a wimpy Airdale parade rest, the Army was hands at waist line 42 years ago.

[Carl Provan]

Then bring them to attention and have them sing the AF song.

From The Halls Of Montazoma, To the Shores of Tripoli...

[Skydiver]

LOL! I knew I should have grabbed the photo of the Marines or the Army instead of going cheap and picking the photo with the smallest download size. :-)

The choice of start position was just to fit in with a theme for the stage and add some variety. It is not necessarily to make the stage more difficult.

[Nik Habicht]

The choice of start position was just to fit in with a theme for the stage and add some variety. It is not necessarily to make the stage more difficult.

And that sounds cool.....

[Flyin40]

If you're concerned about it -- a dropped gun -- could always start the shooter unloaded (safer, but doesn't get around the DQ issue) or start the shooter with the gun positioned on a table, or in a briefcase bolted to a table or barrel, or someplace else that isn't holstered....

+1 Just put a barrel to put the gun on. If the start goes with the stage theme keep it.

Flyin

[aztecdriver]

I don't see anything wrong with this. There was a stage at SC sectionals last year that required you to hold a leash (rope tied to a post) in your strong hand outside the shooting area. Some people went all the way right and held the leash behind their back. This was problematic as they let go of the leash and brought their hand forward to draw. Although one didn't have to start this way, I did see one DQ because they bumped the back of the gun bringing their hand forward and knocked the gun out of the holster.

[kp110477]

The position illustrated is "at-rest" or "at-ease". Parade rest is a much more structured form of attention rather than simply relaxed with hands behind back.

[Sarge]

Then bring them to attention and have them sing the AF song.

Nudge. You mean the ARMY song of course.

[Sarge]

The position illustrated is "at-rest" or "at-ease". Parade rest is a much more structured form of attention rather than simply relaxed with hands behind back.

Dude, it's an Air Force picture. Thats as formal as they get.

[Joe4d]

Then bring them to attention and have them sing the AF song.

doesnt that go something like,

"Aim High"......and miss?

I agree with sfchorn, if you have to ask why do it ? Spend your time on shooting challenges.

[joecichlid]

doesnt that go something like,

"Aim High"......and miss?

OMG!! If I had been drinking something when I read that it would have shot out my nose, too funny. But in all honesty my deepest thanks go out to all the men and women of all branches that protect our land and safety.

Joe W.

[Flyin40]

Then bring them to attention and have them sing the AF song.

doesnt that go something like,

"Aim High"......and miss?

I agree with sfchorn, if you have to ask why do it ? Spend your time on shooting challenges.

All courses have shooting challenges and most of the thought should be put into them but its the courses that are a little different that you remember. The ones with the different props, start position etc are the ones that get talked about the most. I know I have shot a ton of run and gun stages but most don't stand out from each other and tend to run together unless I start going through stages at a particular match in my head.

Spend the time on shooting challenges but don't be afraid of making the course of fire unique. Part of designing stages is also adding distractions in my opinion. Props, stage requirements(hold briefcase in weak hand) and start positions that take away from the shooting are great. I like them because in reality they don't take away from the shooting challenge at all. People see certain things and then forget about the shooting challenge because they are worrying so much about the prop or start position. It comes down to the shooting. You can figure out what is the best way to handle something different but don't let it take priority over shooting.

Flyin

Flyin

Edited March 28, 2010 by Flyin40

[twodownzero]

The position illustrated is "at-rest" or "at-ease". Parade rest is a much more structured form of attention rather than simply relaxed with hands behind back.

Actually there are no actual positions of "at ease" or "rest." While it is common to use a modified form of parade rest for these positions, the book only stipulates that the right foot must remain planted, and whether talking is allowed or not (yes in rest, no for at ease). There is no requirement to stand any particular way other than that.

I do agree that this picture is not the proper position of parade rest, which requires the hands in the small of the back (at the waist area, mentioned by another poster already).

Edited March 28, 2010 by twodownzero

[Micah]

Just my own opinion, but many actions in stages have a degree of risk...for example opening doors, Cooper Tunnels, moving backwards. On Sunday I shot a match that had a stomp activator (Click here to see it...it's the second stage). It was raining, and the activator was a bit slick. Competitors needed to be careful when activating it to prevent slipping.

Making a competitor think in a stage is important. Some people will be able to navigate through such maneuvers without difficulty based on their skill level. Those newer shooters will simply need to be more cautious. Like Flex said, simply pointing it out in the shooters meeting should be sufficient.

[Sarge]

The position illustrated is "at-rest" or "at-ease". Parade rest is a much more structured form of attention rather than simply relaxed with hands behind back.

Actually there are no actual positions of "at ease" or "rest." There is no requirement to stand any particular way other than that.

I do agree that this picture is not the proper position of parade rest, which requires the hands in the small of the back (at the waist area, mentioned by another poster already).

I guess it depends on what branch of service you are referencing whether you are right or wrong on this.

Army- Parade Rest is a modified position of attention. The ONLY difference is feet shoulder width apart and hands in small of back(right over left by the way).

At Ease is most certainly a position. It is a relaxed parade rest in that, as you stated, the right foot must remain in place, you may relax your arms and you must remain standing.

Rest is also a position which allows talking and even sitting as long as you remain in the same general area.

Proof that these are all positions is found in the fact that to go from rest to attention you must first give the command "at ease" before you call the element to attention at which time on the preparatory command for attention they automatically assume parade rest.

But I think the position is a good starting position. I have often wondered if it would be faster to turn and shoot by doing an about face. I guess that would work best on a smooth surface though.

[Nik Habicht]

I have often wondered if it would be faster to turn and shoot by doing an about face. I guess that would work best on a smooth surface though.

Get thee to a range and find out, not only if it's faster, but how it sets you up to shoot, i.e. can you shoot the drill faster with better points, or does the about face leave you in a less than desirable shooting stance?

Then report back..... :P

[Sarge]

I just tried it in my office on a hard tile surface. I can report that the turn is much faster. If I do a "wide" stance about face my feet can end up in pretty good position.

[Flexmoney]

In a stage I'm dreaming of setting up a few months from now, I'm considering having the competitor starting in a parade rest position.

Clearly you will have to define the start position better than "parade rest"...as everybody at a match will debate what parade rest means.

[Skydiver]

In a stage I'm dreaming of setting up a few months from now, I'm considering having the competitor starting in a parade rest position.

Clearly you will have to define the start position better than "parade rest"...as everybody at a match will debate what parade rest means.

Yup, it's becoming pretty obvious that I'll need to define it clearly. :-)

[Jesse Tischauser]

I think its a great idea. It keeps all of those guys that practice all the other somewhat regular odd starts on their toes. If you have two or more dropped guns then don't do it again.

I might even go as far as having them bend a little at the waist and grab their a$$ with both hands. You could call it the over 40 start position.

Edited April 7, 2010 by jtischauser