Holo At 300 Yards In Iraq

[mike.45]

Do any of the GI shooters have .338 Lapua Mag like the Brits and their Accuracy Intl. guns?

Rhino,

I am sure a few of our SF boys like the .338, but the standard UK issue Accuracy Int sniper weapons in use by the UK is in .308 and most Police over here use .308 with Styer SSG's.

My buddy is a British army sniper and he loves the Acc Int but he claims the scopes they are issued are not all that good, in fact he wants my Habict 6 x 42 as he recons its better than his issue one. Typical UK army - buy a great gun and skimp on what makes it tick.

I am in no doubt a few SF teams use the .338 chambered version as they do get the pick of the crop - they do like to abuse their guns though. I saw one of the very first .44 mag Desert Eagles ever produced by IMI that was presented to the Royal Enfield Armoury Pattern Room as a 'pattern' gun. Originally it was nicely engraved and had a fantastic finish. As it was the first in the UK at the time, the SAS 'borrowed' it to evaluate and then it was returned - they had fully evaluated it by driving over it with tanks and stuff and then test fired it.

When I first saw the gun I wondered why such a historic collection would have such a rubbish and abused example, I enquired into this and the curator - the late Herb Woodend, simply shrugged and said 'The Regiment heard we had one and asked to borrow it, they even said they would look after it - who am I to say no to them'.

No respect for guns those boys

Mike

[uscbigdawg]

Eric,

Here's some more info on the rifle on the left:

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinf...facts/blm24.htm

Rich

[JLJ]

More on the EoTech....I can tell you from looking at many many sights while in the USMC, that this sight performs very well. It performed well enough to hit a 8" disk at 408 yrds with two spotters out of a 14.5" M4. I guess it depends on what you like to see while your shooting. The FOV is great! But save yourself some money in the long run and get the slightly longer version in 'AA'.

JLJ

[KyleL]

I'm not wanting to start a debate here, since I know exactly squat about sniper scopes, but I have seen a video of an IR system that *does* see through walls. No clue if it fits on a rifle or not...

EricW,

Actually there is no debate. IR simply cannot see through walls, unless of course you are talking about a tent wall. Now if you are talking sheetrock or concrete, not possible.

Thermal you might be able to see through the tent wall too, but not the concrete or sheetrock.

If you have info on a system that will do what you say, please let us know. I know a few guys I would like to pass that info along to.

Benneli2

All is well, send me an email. I don't have access to my address book on the laptop.

Sprinkler.... on my head...... sounds like fun.. did you say SLUGS... ok not fun.

I shudder at the thought of 35 slugs. Actually I am going to go lay in the corner and suck my thumb.

God Bless America!!!!!!!

KyleL

[EricW]

Actually there is no debate. IR simply cannot see through walls, unless of course you are talking about a tent wall. Now if you are talking sheetrock or concrete, not possible.

Thermal you might be able to see through the tent wall too, but not the concrete or sheetrock.

It may have been a radar system (which can see through concrete) that I saw and I mistakenly assumed that it was thermal. I do remember watching soldiers run into a concrete block structure and being able to see them move on both sides. I shall scour Sharper Image catalogs until I find said device and can vindicate myself.

[rhino]

I saw a show on the Discovery channel where some military guys were talking about the huge advantage they had when using their imaging system before entering a building. I don't know if it was IR/Thermal or something else, but apparently they could make out the shapes of humans in the room through the exterior walls.

And what's the difference between IR and thermal? Thermal radiation is in the IR band of the spectrum, so what am I missing?

[KyleL]

Rhino,

You got me on that question.. All I know is Thermal shows a heat source, IR NVG Night Vision Goggles only allow you to see heat if it is extremely hot.

For example, with NVG if you look at a barrel on a MG all you see is barrel. Now if you look at the barrel after it has heated up it appears as though you can see the bullets going down the tube. How it works who knows...

I can't figure out how to make the VCR quit blinking 1200, and you guys want explanations.

Maybe Kelly can tell us, I am sure he doesn't know but as a DA he should be able to come up with a good story.

God Bless America!!

KyleL

[kellyn]

Damn it, Jim! I am prosecutor not an engineer.

Kyle you still have a VCR! No wonder you don't have an open class at your match.

[KyleL]

Kelly,

Maybe someday when I get old or older and softer I will start to feel for you guys.... Until then... Hold what you got

God Bless the USA!!!!

KyleL

[kellyn]

Hey, I'm not one of "you guys." I'm very Limited, in so many ways. Up the Irons (sights)!!!!!!!!!

Just remember you're older than me and you'll be losing those iron sights long before I will. I can't wait until you and Steve Hendricks (the other most talented "practical" shooter I know) start longing for a dot on your pistol. I just wait for the phone call " Kelly, can I borrow your open pistol?" I'll just say "sure" and smile.........

[uscbigdawg]

The closest thing to "seeing" through solid objects that I think is available is Micropower Impulse Radar. It's used a lot in rescue/recovery operations. Basically, you have a probe, that you would place against a surface and it identifies "targets" on what looks like an over priced oscilloscope. Basically, when say a building collapses and a rescuer is trying to find bodies. You would place the probe against a section of the rubble and it will identify say heartbeats, etc. I think it can identify other elements based on the setting, but does have the ability to read through concrete, CMU, etc.

However, it's not near the Hollywood pictures that we see on TV.

Rich

[dirtypool40]

I"m no expert so feel free to clarify if you are....

The difference between IR and Thermal;

Look at something with a thermal system and within a range you get different colors the computer separates out as different heat levels, really hot stands out well against really cold, movement of one over another is readily apparent. Thermal systems are passive, you are not shining anything out there to get an image, if the temperature differential is there it shows up.

IR only "sees" in the IR spectrum, although if you remember the old 1950's IR sights they also hung IR spots on them to make sure there was something to see. It's generally a form of "black and white", and you can use an IR flood to see things that have no thermal differential. Bad news is, like in the '50s, you are hold a spot light and anyone with a passive IR lens sees you.

I don't know if that explains it clearly enough, one is "seeing" in a different spectrum than our eyes normally process, the other is just assigning values and breaking them out into colors.

DV to the C

[KyleL]

Dirty Pool

I think you are right on. One other thing though is you don't need the spotlight to see in the IR spectrum. NVG will give you this ability, however if you decide you want to see better, then adding a light source (IR) will make it easier to see as well as anyone with a Cabelas catalog to see you.

I am sure there is some expert out there with a fancy explanation.

God Bless the USA!!!!

Kyle

[SGDM]

OK fellas, here is the skinny on the IR/Thermal/NVG topic. I just happen to know a little about this subject. Here is the Readers Digest version 1.0.

1. IR/Thermal sights are one in the same. Most of us call this system a FLIR. This system uses super cooled gas, 80 deg K, to "see" an object. The system uses the IR spectrum, approx 0.7 micron, to differentiate the temperature of an object, based on a perfect black body, not Halle Berry, Todd.

2. NVG's use phosphor and an electrical charge to enhance available light that allow an Operator to fly, drive, run, and shoot with great accuracy in austere environments on zero illum nights. NVG's use the near visible light of the spectrum. There are several versions out there, but basically work the same. An IR light source will enhance your ability to "see".

They both work in the IR spectrum, just different ranges.

Kyle, you need to find something better to do than stand over a 240 watching the bullets go down the barrel with NVG's!! Stop Lolly Gagg'in!

Kyle is right, there is not a device that can "see" through concrete, wood, sheetrock. If you know of one , let us know. However, if you need to see through a wall, call me and I will conduct a Fire Mission.

Radar can't see through solids either but I do know of some high speed doppler stuff that is pretty cool. Most of it is Hollywood.

Kyle not only has a VCR, but a 8-track player too!!

God Bless America!

Greg

[rhino]

1. IR/Thermal sights are one in the same. Most of us call this system a FLIR. This system uses super cooled gas, 80 deg K, to "see" an object. The system uses the IR spectrum, approx 0.7 micron, to differentiate the temperature of an object, based on a perfect black body, not Halle Berry, Todd.

Ah-HAH! The li'l blue pachyderm was actually right for once! Vindication is sweet, sweet, sweetness.

Are those gadgets you can get to locate large game animals a primitive version of FLIR?

Kyle is right, there is not a device that can "see" through concrete, wood, sheetrock.  If you know of one , let us know.

Intuitively, that makes a lot of sense. Maybe I misinterpreted what I saw on the Discoveryl, DTIME, and History channels.

Is it possible, though, under just the right conditions, to be able to discern heat sources (like people) through some building materials? And if the blob at 98.6F is moving around, might it not be inferred that it's a person? If so, it wouldn't be much help in the identification department, but it would certainly be an advantage to be able to estimate numbers and relative positions in a room or building.

[C Sims]

Our township bought are local city Fire Dept. a Thermal Imaging camera. It is very cool. When using the camera, the operator can see the foot prints of a person (with shoes on) left on a floor when they walked across the room. I was amazed that there was enough heat transfered even with a person walking to be able to see this. You can also see the 2x4 studs in a wall as there is some heat loss thru them differently then thru the insulation. As to be able to see a "body" thru a wall, I think the person would have to be in contact with the wall and even then not sure if the operator would be able to "see" them.

Rhino, The camera was only $15,000, buy one for your own tests and then you can let us know.

[shred]

Millimeter-wave radar is capable of seeing people-n-stuff through walls, but at the moment, it's in the experimental/prototype stage and detection range is still short.

[KyleL]

SGDM,

For being so Stupid you sure are Smart... Kinda like the self licking Ice Cream Cone..

God Bless America!!!!!!!!

KyleL

[joshua]

Maybe if we have an EP3C mission crew member here he can probably clue as in if we actually have equipment that can see through walls. I saw lots of neat stuff that we weren't suppose to talk about, but you see most of it in discovery channel-go figure. When my unit was in Kuwait we had army dudes escort us to and from the airport. When we left Kuwait it was early in the morning and we had breakfast with our escorts. I like the SAW the kid in the rear hummer was carrying. josh

[Kyle Norris]

To chime in on the themal/IR debate...

I have used thermal imaging cameras (TICs). They are EXTREMELY cool, and allow firefighters to size-up a fire or other incident without immediately putting themselves in danger. However, what you looking at with a TIC is more of a difference in heat levels than heat it's self. For instance, I could easily see a fire through a wall with a TIC as it is much hotter than the surrounding area. In the same vein, I could easily see body in a mass of fire, as it is much COLDER than the surrounding area. Three things however, easily defeat a TICs abbilities. Reflective surfaces are one. A TIC can not see through glass verry well at all, or any kind of polished stainless steel. You end up looking at yourself. Good insulation (concrete block, ect.) will do it is as well. The final one, and probably most pertinent to this disscussion is similar tempatures. You will not be able to make out a 96 dgree human in a 90 degree (or for that matter 70 degree) ambient envrionment. There is not enough of a tempature difference to make it show up very well. So seeing a sniper through a block wall with no other heat sources would be very unlikely.