Holo At 300 Yards In Iraq

[ranger]

Interesting cover article in the ARMY Times today. Discussion on snipers in Iraq. Units is the new Stryker BDE out of FT Lewis. Article talks about an engagement where a sniper team observer used a M14 with a EOTECH (2nd generation HOLOSIGHT) to successfully engage a target at 300 yards with a first round strike. Apparently, this type of scope is "practical" after all.

[ChandlerSniper158]

Heres the article for those interested.

CS#158

SAMARRA, Iraq — The sun was sinking at the desert’s edge when Sgt. Randall Davis spotted his target, an armed Iraqi on a rooftop about 300 meters away.

“It was just getting dark. I saw a guy step in front of the light,” said the 25-year-old sniper.

Davis knew he was watching another sniper by the way the man stepped back into the shadows and crept along the roofline to spy down on a squad from his unit — B Company, 5th Battalion, 20th Infantry Regiment.

“Most people, when they get on a roof, will just move around and do what they’ve got to do,” he said in a recent interview here. “But this guy was moving slowly, trying to have smooth motions, trying to stay in the shadows.”

From his own rooftop position, Davis tracked him with his favorite weapon — an M-14 rifle equipped with a special optic sight that has crosshairs and a red aiming dot.

He didn’t have to wait long before the enemy sniper made his second mistake.

“He silhouetted his rifle from the waist up, trying to look over at the guys in the courtyard,” Davis said.

His M-14 spoke once.

“I hit him in the chest. He fell back. His rifle flew out of his hands,” Davis said. “You could see blood spatter on the wall behind where he was standing.”

Confirmed kill, his eighth — which includes seven enemies picked off in one day.

The deadly Dec. 18 encounter took place on the second night of Operation Ivy Blizzard, a joint combat operation aimed at clearing guerrillas from this city of 250,000, a nest of insurgent activity in the Sunni Triangle.

The operation is being carried out by the 5-20’s parent unit, Fort Lewis, Wash.-based 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division (SBCT), and 3rd Brigade, 4th Infantry Division, out of Fort Carson, Colo.

Snipers had attacked the 5-20 three days before the rooftop encounter.

“We had been engaged by snipers in here before, so I was hoping it was the same guy,” the Nashville, Tenn., native said. “It’s kind of a professional insult to get shot at by another sniper.”

Davis pulled out a pack of Marlboro Lights from the cargo pocket on his left leg and lit up a cigarette. He seems to take his job in stride, though he admits he’s been surprised at how busy he’s been since he arrived here two weeks ago.

New urban-warfare threat

Just five months before the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the Army began teaching urban sniper techniques as part of its five-week sniper course at Fort Benning, Ga.

Army leaders recognized the emerging threat and realized that traditional sniper techniques of lying prone and stalking prey in the open would not be enough in a world where terrorists hit and run from inside city buildings and busy streets.

Army Sniper School’s urban training course includes lessons on concealment, shooting positions and more. The Army also added more snipers to field units as part of its ongoing transformation to a more mobile and lethal force.

The leaders of the Stryker brigade — the new wheeled combat vehicle that is part of the transformation — say their snipers have proven ideal for limiting collateral damage and civilian casualties in this guerrilla-style fight.

“These guys are invaluable to our mission,” said B Company commander Capt. Damien Mason, describing how two-man sniper teams are deployed to provide precision fire against hit-and-run shooters or for counter-sniper work.

“[Enemy] snipers have been a problem in this town,” he said.

the enemy sniper Davis took out Dec. 18 was by no means his first kill here.

In the handful of skirmishes since mid December, Davis has been credited with eight confirmed kills and two “probables,” a count no soldier in the brigade has come close to matching.

Davis sees his job as vital to saving the lives of his own troops and takes no pleasure in the killing.

“That’s one of those things you accept when you take the job,” he said.

Davis has been working in two-man sniper teams for two years. He’s a spotter and mentor for his less-experienced sniper teammate, Spc. Chris Wilson. In many cases, the situation dictates who takes the shot.

“The roles switch up constantly between spotter and shooter,” Davis said.

Davis, though, has done most of the shooting since his unit began operating in Samarra on Dec. 14.

It wasn’t long after arriving that he found himself with an Iraqi in his sights and his finger on the trigger. One night, he and Davis were taking sporadic fire in their position when two Iraqis burst out of a mosque with AK-47 rifles.

“I shot the trail one,” he said, describing how the individual managed to crawl away, so he was listed as a probable kill. “He was hurt pretty bad.”

The next day, B Company walked into an ambush designed to draw them into the city. Before the day was over, Davis, armed with an M-4 carbine and an all-purpose optic, would be responsible for seven of the 11 enemy kills.

Most of the shots he took were while on the move at distances of 100 to 300 meters — longer than a football field, but certainly not the greatest distance from which he has hit his human target.

on Dec. 20, he killed another sniper with one shot from an XM107 .50 caliber sniper rifle at a distance of 750 meters.

Davis admits he never thought he’d be this busy before deploying to Iraq.

“This is the first time I have been in ever been in a combat situation,” he said. “Really it was just like targets down range – you just hit your target and acquire your next target. I thought I’d have a harder time shooting. Shooting someone is pretty unnatural.”

Early interest in sniper work

Davis is described by B Company 1st Sgt. Ray Hernandez as one of the best noncommissioned officers in the unit.

“He’s very professional — one of those NCOs where you tell him to do a job, and he does it,” said Hernandez, who is from El Paso, Texas.

Mason, the B Company commander, agreed.

“He will make things happen,” said the 29-year-old from Kihei, Hawaii. “He will get the mission done no matter what.”

Davis said the toughest part of the deployment is that it means a year away from his wife and six-year-old son.

Nevertheless, serving in a war zone is the opportunity to fulfill a dream he’s had since he was a kid.

“It’s one of those things I wanted to do since I was 12,” he said, describing how reading about famous snipers was a favorite pastime.

Legendary snipers became his role models. Snipers such as Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock, a Marine sniper in Vietnam with 98 confirmed kills, Sgt. 1st Class. Randy Shugart and Master Sgt. Gary Gordon, two Delta Force snipers, who died in Somalia in 1993 trying to rescue a downed crew of a MH-60 Black Hawk during the battle of Mogadishu.

“What those guys did was amazing,” he said.

Born with 20/10 vision, Davis said he has been shooting and hunting as long as he can remember. His favorite deer gun was a Remington Model 700 bolt-action rifle in .308 caliber — the civilian version of the Army’s M-24 sniper rifle.

“I kind of grew up with the rifle,” he said.

The interests of his youth made it easy for Davis to transition into a job he describes as a more humane way of fighting an enemy that can easily blend in with harmless civilians.

“I just thought it was a very smart way to fight a war — very lethal, very precise,” he said. “This way I know I’m not shooting civilians. Every shot you take, you know exactly where the bullet is going.”

[Scooter]

Here are the pictures.

[TriggerT]

I believe it. I have a Ultima 2000 on my JP Ar, and I think getting hits on IPSC size targets out to 300 yards can be easily done. I don't think you could score very precise hits, on say a certain part of a torso, but for quicker "snap' shots it would be muck faster than a traditional scope. Need a small dot, of course.

Cool pics.

[ErikW]

Who is the article's author and in what publication did it appear?

[BigDave]

To add to this:

I work with a father of an Army Ranger who told me directly that he purchased a EOTech sight (apparently the compatible version for night vision) for his son who is in Iraq right now. His words to me were "my son decreased his rifle qualification time by over XXX (don't remember the number, but it sounded significant) and he liked it so much he asked me to get one for a buddy of his"

Apparently they work and work well.

[kurtm]

Great marksmanship! However I feel that that set up is, as all ways was, to high on an M-14. Almost any optic ruins cheek weld on a 14. Nice thing about the Holo type sight.... no paralax. I think the shot could easily been done with the N.M. iron sights that were on the rifle, but if it's working for this troop, good for him!! KURT

[rhino]

A few months ago I saw a PBS special featuring one of the US Army Special Forcers operational detachments (I forget their number). The featured guy was a high ranking NCO (first sergeant, I think) in his mid 40s and I noticed that he had an EOTech on his M4. Then I noticed that almost everyone else has an EOTech on their weapons as well. I saw an ACOG, but the rest were all EOTechs.

They could choose any equipment they wanted, but that's what they had. It says quite a bit!

Curiously, there was not an M68 optical sight (the Aimpoint) among them.

[ranger]

Eric, the magazine is ARMY TIMES, 5 January 2004 edition, page 17. Matthew Cox, a staff writer, wrote the article. www.armytimes.com.

Scott

[sahauptman]

Anyone know where to find that handguard on that M14

[Scooter]

It's the Knight's RAS. It cost an arm and a leg. Cal has them for $445.

http://www.calssportingarmory.com/KnightsArmamentCoMWS.htm

You won't be able to use any other scope mount with it because it uses the bolt hole in the receiver.

[ErikW]

Thanks, ranger, I kind of figured it was a U.S. armed forces publication. I was curious why they used full names when much of the reporting I've seen from there goes out of the way to avoid giving names.

What does the guy on the left have? .50 BMG sniper rifle? Nah, probably just the weird perspective makes it look huge, like the M14. Dandy rear sling attachment; I wonder what the Brownells part # is.

[EricW]

I always wondered if military snipers used flash hiders, now I know.

What freakin' optic does the guy on the left have bolted on? Just curious, so if I ever get drafted I'll know which gun I *don't* want to drag across North Korea.

That sucker must weigh a ton.

It kind of ticks me off that soldiers are ponying up out of their own funds to get what ought to be issued to them. Do we need to take up a collection and sponsor them? The airfarce gets a bunch of fancy planes they don't really need to fight an enemy that doesn't exist. Meanwhile, the troops out getting their asses shot off have to panhandle for a three-hundred dollar scope. I find that pretty embarassing, personally.

[Skywalker]

EricW,

I might be wrong but I suspect the left soldier gun is something equipped with a thermal IR scope.

I know in Bosnia, to counter local snipers, countersnipers were equipped with a .50BMG rifle and thermal IR scopes, to be able to shoot snipers hiding behind walls: just trace the contour of the sniper and shoot through the wall...

[ranger]

The rifle on the left is the classic M700 based 308 sniper rifle with a flash hider attached. The scope is the new integrated day/night optic that is thermal based. The thermal sniper scope works amazingly well and is not as heavy as it looks. Plus, one integrated day/night scope is much better (lighter) than two scopes - a day traditional scope plus a night scope.

There is another article in ARMY TIMES describing how the Army has established a sniper school in Iraq to train more snipers or at least designated marksmen due to the success of the snipers. The snipers are being used an overwatch element to support patrols. In the past. machine guns and mortars would have supported such patrols but, obviously, the sniper is more discriminating and may be the Infantry's best PGM (precision guided munition) for this current type of fighting.

As far as soldiers buying their own "stuff". It has always been that way but things have changed dramatically for the better since I was a light fighter in the 80's. The Army is quickly fielding new items to the soliders today that I would have bought myself in the 80s.

The new Stryker BDEs are getting a lot of "cool" stuff and, of course, the Ranger BNs are loaded with the best toys. I am in the GA National Guard and we are rapidly fielding new equipment ourselves including the M4 carbine.

Scott

[rhino]

I wonder what the sticker price on one of those sights would be . . .

I'll bet it's one of those "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" kind of deals.

Do any of the GI shooters have .338 Lapua Mag like the Brits and their Accuracy Intl. guns? I think the .308 must be perfect for urban sharpshooting, but in Afghanistan, the .338 had some advantages.

So how hard is it to defeat those thermal imaging sights? It must suck to be the bad guys at night.

[ChandlerSniper158]

It is pretty sad to see guys shipping off to Iraq/Afghanistan without gear they need. I own a company that sells Military and LE gear.. mostly Spec Ops stuff, but do sell day to day gear as well. We have a unit here that just shipped out after x-mas and I had half of the guys coming to me for equipment and things they can`t get thru supply, nomex gloves, BIS for the weapons, flashlights, ect... They weren`t even sure what type of body armor they were going to have once in theatre, so I got em as much Police turn in stuff as I could..we ended up with about 40 vests to give to the guys. It won`t do much against rifle or steel core ammo, but it`s better than nothing especially against frags. What they can`t wear, they are going to use it to line thier vehicles.

The EOTech is a very good optic. When they first came out, they weren`t all that tough, but they listen to the guys who know and use the stuff and made improvements accordingly, to the point that several SF ODAs are mounting them on all of thier battle rifles. There is a few other Special Ops units testing/using them as well. I am the local dist for them and I get forwarded alot of info from them, about letters and e-mails from active soldiers/Marines who are using the optics with good success. I have to admit myself, I am a long time Aimpoint user on my M4, but I have been playing with the EOTech more lately and it is very fast. I don`t know if I would replace my ACOG for 3 gunning with it, but for up close and personal work.. they are great.

rhino..The optic in question on the M-24 is a PVS-10, they go for about $10K a pop.. want me to order you one up?

For the most part.. shooters still use the .308 for Sniper work.. there are a few units fielding the .300 win mag, but those are Spec War/ SF and "contract" guys who are over there. From what I am hearing thru the grapevine of course..

CS#158

[KyleL]

PVS-10 is indeed a IR night vision Scope. It is not thermal. Two completely different ways of seeing day?night.

When a thermal is used you can't see through walls, or even through windows. Smoke and fog yes.. Walls No. Only the movie makers have that ability.

God Bless America!!!!!

KyleL

[EricW]

I'm not wanting to start a debate here, since I know exactly squat about sniper scopes, but I have seen a video of an IR system that *does* see through walls. No clue if it fits on a rifle or not...

===========================

What are the typical enagement distances in Iraq? Urban? Not so urban? Just curious because a friend who was a Vietnam vet was telling me that they virtually never had an engagement over 100 yards with most of it in the 25-50 range.

[benelli2]

Kyle, good to see you logging in so when is the match? Are you going to make mine in June? I'm saving the rollover prone slug stage until you can come! Thity-five slugs standing on your head with a sprinkler hosing you down, but you can use an EOtech sight. Email me

[Chriss Grube]

Eric,

I'm sure he's talking about regular infantry distances not sniper. The engagement distance is dictated by the terrain. Jungle or thick forrest is will be up close and personal. Iraq is urban so house to house, street to street or roof tops. Look around your neighborhood and you'll see the general distances.

[EricW]

Chriss,

I was just curious if the folks in the know had heard. It's so tough to judge what's going on from the crappy coverage on TV.

What prompted the question was that one day, my friend and I were at the 25 yard range yakking about his time in Vietnam and he told me that the bad guys weren't much farther away than the backstop usually. I pretty much had to change my shorts after that. At those distances, the Holo seems pretty damned practical to me.

If there's troops over in Iraq that need/want a Holo and can't afford one, I'm happy to kick some bucks into the hat and help get them one. There's no way I'd want to go up against five bad guys with AK's at ranges under 100 yards and not have every advantage possible.

[Chriss Grube]

Eric,

There are a couple of our guys over there now and probably going to lose a few more to call ups before long. The info they gave was pretty much what I gave you. Lots of hit and run engagements on patrol and house to house stuff on planned raids.

[TravisT]

Eric- you might be surprised at how many light fighter infantry have the M68 in their kit. Whether they choose it over irons or not is a different story. Hell, we even used them in OSUT(11B) - along with M16A4’s (flat-top and rails), PAC4’s and PVS 14’s. I know the aimpoint isn't an EO, but it is a dot. Also, I think there was some confusion over IR/thermal, as Kyle said a thermal (not IR) couldn't see through walls. Keep up the great work KL!

TT

[Ganado]

Hoo-raaaaah