IPSC wants to limit SG rules

[LChico]

A guy and his coterie. I am surprised that Neil Beverley is involved in this. Very disappointing. It would not be above IPSC to change the rules before the PanAm shotgun match, regardless of what has been said here. Remember the IPSC Global Village Forum is very small-I think around five thousand members. However, most of the posting is done by a small group of very sarcastic and belligerent members. The main moderator is a prime offender. His comments are more offensive and harmful to the sport than any mall ninja with shells taped to his arm. It is nothing like this forum. I stopped reading it because it is often puerile and simply not informative. The actual IPSC clubs that I am aware of in Europe and South America are real shooters and have the same interests and positive attitudes that shooters here do. There is a problem in IPSC, but is confined to a few bellicose individuals. I hope they leave or are forced to leave.

Again, the Pan Am will run under current rules. I spoke to the Range Master today and there are no changes in rules prior to the Pan Am. A handful of us have been busting our chops to bring a world class shotgun match to the US, and I'd really hate to be derailed by rumors. Feel free to hate the proposed rules, but PLEASE stop associating them with the Pan Am.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Co-Match Director

2010 IPSC PanAm Shotgun Championship

[bigbrowndog]

In Linda's defense, the proposed rules are just that proposed, the PanAm may be the very place to make your opinions known to the IPSC higher ups. They "should" be there, it would also be an excellent place to show your support for the sport.

Just like all elected officials, we need to show them that we do not appreciate their current efforts, by changing the regime. Too often, they survive simply through membership inactivity, I agree with Craig, if they feel that way and voice the opinion publicly they are doing the sport a grave injustice, and should leave on their own accord, and if not then should be removed from office or position of power.

For too long we have been suffering from decisions that they have made that do not benefit the sport.

trapr

[Doug H.]

I posted this on IGV:

It's fairly obvious that somebody doesn't like mag fed shotguns but maximum 5 rounds in a mag, you've go to be kidding, even USPSA allows 10. Just another reason that IPSC and USPSA will go the way of the Dodo and Outlaw matches will continue to be over subscribed, too many foolish rules. I've already signed up for the Pan Am match but if this goes through I'll be asking for my money back.

Doug

Hi Doug.

Please tell me what attendance at the Pan Am Shotgun Championship has to do with your objection to these proposed rule changes.

These are PROPOSED rules and the vote will not occur until after the Pan Am Match. The Pan Am will run under current rules.

The RD's vote. There will be a few RD's at Pan Am. Please follow Chuck Anderson's example and express your concern about the proposed rule changes to Michael Voigt.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

Co-Match Director

2010 IPSC PanAm Shotgun Championship

This is not a knock on the Pan Am and I am very excited about attending, but

as has been stated above, it is possible (though highly unlikely) that IPSC could make these changes before the Pan Am match. That leaves me with a mag fed shotgun that is limited to a total of 6 rounds (5 round mag + one in the chamber) vs other Open shooters that can start with 11 rounds. Not really fair.

I have every intention of attending as long as the match is conducted under the current rules.

As for contacting Mr. Voigt, I have all ready done so and here is his reply:

"Doug

I am against the changes, these are not what was decided when I was at the meetings.

Have no worry that I will continue to fight for PRACTICAL SHOOTING CONTESTS – not one person’s idea of what they wish SG shooting looked like

Michael Voigt

USPSA President

IPSC RD US Region"

Edited March 3, 2010 by Doug H.

[SinistralRifleman]

I'm so sick of PC. Yes, we use real firearms, firing deadly ammunition, at targets that are designed to simulate a human.

I personally don't see a problem with that. It's never going to be an Olympic sport due to the people that want all firearms completely banned. So why sugar-coat it?

It's being sugar coated because even those (insert darth vader character here) who should be resisting it feel that the participants gear "looks" too controversial. Instead of taking a stance of education, and reassurance that IPSC competitors pose no threat. IPSC adminitstration has agreed with a populace that is easily scared by inanimate objects.

A statement such as this should never be put forth by someone who has leadership influence in a shooting organization.

" We need to strike a balance. When I see such long magazines and "suicide bomber" shell carriers and additional shells carried on the arms and even more shells carried on the belt, I think it's time to step back and determine if that's the "sporting" image we want to portray in IPSC.

I think it's getting way out of hand ....."

If you feel we are not sporting enough please feel free to step down and find another hobby for yourself.

Ownership of "military style firearms" is on the rise in the United States, and those types of firearms are increasingly seen as more acceptable. Action Shooting Sports are receiving more and more positive press coverage; it's the EXTREME sport of shooting and more appealing to contemporary Americans.

I don't see where this negative image stuff is coming from; if you've looked on the antigun organization websites they show main stream IPSC people with bright colored guns and atheletic logo covered shirts demonizing it as "making light of tools for killing". These people will hate us either way, I see no reason to appease them.

[Jadeslade]

Just so there is no equivocating-I am coming to the PanAm Match-I think it is a once in a lifetime chance. I support Mike Voigt totally and think that USPSA is doing a jam up job and is really getting into a groove with the Nationals in Vegas and the Multigun in Vegas. No problems there. It is unfortunate that the run up to the PanAm match had to have a spanner in the works by having Neil announce these proposed changes now and let the hue and cry detract from Linda's and everybody else's hard work regarding the PanAm Shotgun Match, which is shaping up as the match of the year. I am deferring to administration from now until the match is over-I've got to practice.

[A33435]

Just so there is no equivocating-I am coming to the PanAm Match-I think it is a once in a lifetime chance. Hope to see you there

I support Mike Voigt totally Same here, biggest concern my side is Michaels comment the published rule proposals are different as decided

and think that USPSA is doing a jam up job and is really getting into a groove with the Nationals in Vegas and the Multigun in Vegas. No problems there.

It is unfortunate that the run up to the PanAm match had to have a spanner in the works by having Neil announce these proposed changes

In fact it are the words of IPSC President Alexakos and Neil seems to be the only Executive from to council trying to motivate them, no idea if he supports all of it now and let the hue and cry detract from Linda's and everybody else's hard work regarding the PanAm Shotgun Match, which is shaping up as the match of the year. I am deferring to administration from now until the match is over-I've got to practice.

Greetings

Adrie

[Jim Norman]

Isn't the current leadership of IPSC the same group that postulated taking gunpowder out of the sport of practical shooting? Hey, I know we can all go play video games. We have regions that can't shoot and now we have divisions without guns! Whats next, running around yelling bang and kicking the steel over? I am offended by the references to terrorists and pipe-bombers that have reportedly been made by upper management in IPSC when referring to how shot gunners look. All the more reason to be happy that we have distanced ourselves from IPSC.

Mods, I know I could be skirting close here and if I have slipped over, please ask and I will edit or remove this. I am not bashing IPSC, I am questioning the motives of some of the leadership of IPSC. IPSC is what most of us started out shooting in Practical shooting. Sadly the current leadership would seem to want to remove any reference to practical in either word or deed from IPSC.

I will write to Mike V later expressing my opinion that the proposed rules for SG are wrong and that he vote against them.

Jim

[Sako92S]

Here is a letter from IPSC president:

IPSC has already gotten off to an impressive start and 2010 promises to be another awesome shooting year!

2010 LEVEL IV MATCHES

---------------------

JULY

Pan-American Shotgun Championship

Park Mammoth Resort, Kentucky, United States

http://www.panamericanshotgun.org/

SEPTEMBER

European Handgun Championship

Belgrade, Serbia

http://www.ehc2010.org/

OCTOBER

Latin American Handgun Championship

Buenos Aires, Argentina

http://wwww.ipsc.org.ar/index2.php

Australasia Handgun Championship

Johor Bahru, Malaysia

http://www.australasia2010.com/

2010 COUNCIL MEETING

--------------------

January began with a busy two-day, upbeat, productive Council meeting. I would like to thank the participants who did an outstanding job in working through a very full meeting with much appreciated and worthwhile discussion. Here is a brief summary of the various discussions:

Alain Joly (FRA)

Ren Henderson (CAN)

Dino Evangelinos (CAN)

Juergen Tegge (GER)

Tim Andersen (DEN)

Neil Beverley (GBR)

Luiz Frota (BRA)

Myro Lopez (PHI)

Michael Voigt (USA)

Kees Guichelaar (NED)

Greg and Jayne Moon (AUS)

Ian Fachie (CAN)

International Range Officer Association

---------------------------------------

-IROA Promotions

The on-line promotions are working well. The question of Range Master promotions was discussed at length and it was agreed that better clarification is needed. However, in the final analysis, it comes down to a vote of the IROA committee to recommend or not.

-IROA Provisional and Final Acceptance

The on-line provisional and final acceptance procedures were reviewed. We are pleased to report that the committee members have stepped up their voting participation. We will continue improving the administration, voting, and reporting activities.

-IROA Match Call-Up

We are also pleased with the on-line match call-up system. The new system has greatly enhanced the match call-up process and certainly helped the officials in applying for Level IV and V matches.

-IROA Membership Cards

All current IROA members will receive a new membership card this year that will only be updated when there is a change in rank or stars. Jayne Moon has done a terrific job every year printing out the cards for IROA.

-IROA Shirts

A new shirt sample of a better wearing fabric was introduced by Myro Lopez for consideration. Testing, delivery, and pricing are to come.

-IROA Handbook

The necessary minor revisions and updates will be made to the IROA Handbook later this year.

-IROA Seminars

2010 Seminars scheduled to date:

SEPTEMBER

Level I and II Seminars

Belgrade, Serbia

OCTOBER

Level I and II Seminars

Buenos Aires, Argentina

IPSC Rules

----------

Our rules come up for a revisit next year and I will be encouraging the three technical directors to review the current sections that may restrict us from solving the challenges that allow shooters a freestyle approach in the true sense of the word.

Over the last few years, it seems as if, by removing competitive problems in our courses of fire in the name of 'freestyle', we have ironically strangled the very notion of freestyle itself.

Our Principals define freestyle as, "The participant is permitted the freedom to solve the problem in the manner he considers best."

Overcoming challenges is far more than deciding from which window to shoot. We have unintentionally handicapped course designers to where we are not seeing the innovation and variety we once did in the past.

We need *problems* in order that the true concept of Freestyle can not only exist, but flourish.

IPSC HANDGUN

------------

-Classic Single-Stack Division

If Modified Division is voted to be dropped at the 2011 General Assembly it would be replaced with a Classic Single-Stack Division based exclusively on the 1911 design. The recognition of this new Division seems befitting for the centennial anniversary of the Colt 1911.

IPSC SHOTGUN

------------

The overall success and future of IPSC Shotgun was discussed at length and rule revisions for the 2011 General Assembly were recommended.

-Ammunition

A minimum cartridge length (to be determined) will be recommended.

-Ammunition Carriers

All ammunition shall be carried on a single belt at waist level with a restriction to a maximum of 2 rounds high, one above the other.

-Open Division

A maximum of 11 rounds loaded at the start.

The size of detachable magazines be restricted to 5 rounds.

Speedloading tube be restricted to a maximum of 6 rounds.

Revolving magazine tubes will not be permitted.

-Standard Division

If Modified Division is voted to be dropped at the 2011 General Assembly, ported barrels (but not compensators) will be permitted in Standard Division.

-2012 European IPSC Shotgun Championship

IPSC Hungary intends to apply to host the next European IPSC Shotgun Championship in 2012.

IPSC RIFLE

----------

After hosting a successful European Rifle Championship, IPSC Norway would like to host the first 'IPSC Rifle World Shoot' in 2013.

WEBSITE and WINMSS

------------------

The development of a comprehensive integration of on-line match sanctioning, on-line match registration, on-line match payments, electronic stage scoring, and match scoring system was reviewed. More news coming...

A new release of WinMSS is planned for later this year and the licensing procedures will be abandoned.

IPSC CLASSIFICATION ALIASES

---------------------------

IPSC has well over 10,000 registered ICS aliases! Next January (2011) all ICS aliases that are older than two years without any scores or email direction will automatically be deleted.

HANDGUN RULE BOOKS

------------------

Printed Handgun Rule Books (January 2009 2nd Edition) should soon be available.

COURSE OF FIRE WEB SITE

-----------------------

We continue to develop a Course of Fire web page including sample standardized briefings, visual briefings, Google Sketchup (http://sketchup.google.com/) stage layouts with libraries, and stage format templates. All coming soon...

GENERAL ASSEMBLY

----------------

The date and place for the 2010 IPSC General Assembly has been set for September 11, 2010 in conjunction with the European Handgun Championship, Belgrade, Serbia.

IWA

---

I will be at IWA (http://www.iwa.info/) and can be reached while in Nuremberg through Alain Joly +336 1211 9913. If you are attending, we look forward to seeing you. We will try to arrange a get-together Saturday evening. Give us a call...

DVC

Nick

I'm not happy that single stack division is ONLY for 1911 pistols. Why do not accept all single stack standard pistols like Lahti 35, Husqvarna, Walther PPK and so on.

I do NOT approve any of the new rule change proposals for SG diciplines

I hope Hungary will host the ESC 2012

I hope there will be Rifle WS at Norway 2013

Please, remember to support Linda and her crew on Pan Ams!

[sbmd]

Just received an email from Neil Beverly this morning in regards to the stages. I have to make a few small adjustments on several stages but received a congratulations from him. No where in his email did he indicate anything about these proposed changes or to indicate anything that would affect the Pan Am. Linda and myself would be the first to know if something were to change as we would have to coordinate with the match staff. I feel confidant that nothing will change to the rules prior to the Pan Am.

Now here is your opportunity......we have seen many times over how IPSC rules can have ripple effects in USPSA! With most of the board of IPSC attending the Pan Am, what better place to corner them and provide your input to them face to face.

After reviewing what is proposed...I must agree that I am not happy about these proposed changes! But they are just that PROPOSED!

Linda, Joel, Myro and myself along with the great staff of the Rock Castle Shooting Center are working diligently to bring a fantastic shotgun match to the United States. It is my sincere hope that the turn out from the US shooters is high to show that shotgun is strong here and we can put an IPSC level IV match on the ground that will be the talk for years to come testing all aspects of the shotgun shooting discipline.

Staying away or boycotting the match will only add to their desire to pass these unorthodox rules and interpretations. Remember the squeaky wheel gets the oil! Jim Norman....I hope you plan to attend, you can corner Nick and spend hours with him!

Larry Houck

Co-Match Director

2010 Pan Am Shotgun

[kurtm]

I support the efforts of Larry ( who I keep wanting to call Leo) and Linda. I have been assured that IPSC isn't going to get a dime from the match, so their "ideas" aren't being supported by your hard earned $$$. Feel free to flood the IPSC directors e-mail with your displeasure, but remeber it hasd nothing to do with the Pan-Am which is shaping up to be THE Shotugn match of the century! I am Mr. Weakhand and I approve of this message! KurtM

[Flexmoney]

There has been some more info put out. Basically a bulet point summary of the meeting of the council.

http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=10438&view=findpost&p=108250

[Jim Norman]

Since not all of us visit the IPSC forum (GV) how about posting the info here?

[Wakal]

I can sum up...

"We know best, anyone who disagrees is a troll and a thug, and no, we don't have to explain anything to anyone...thug troll..."

There, saved ya 10 pages of evasion and side-stepping

Alex

[jasmap]

I can sum up...

"We know best, anyone who disagrees is a troll and a thug, and no, we don't have to explain anything to anyone...thug troll..."

There, saved ya 10 pages of evasion and side-stepping

Alex

I hate to believe this but after reading it, you pretty much summed it up.

[The Antichrome]

I rarely go to the GV site and had forgotten my password.

So I hit the 'forgot password' function. It gives you one those silly

'type the words in the box' security checks.

One of the words was "politburo"

No punchline required.

[Sako92S]

I can sum it up also:

1. No arm band carriers allowed

2. No side saddles on shotgun attached

3. Only 1 belt at waist level allowed.

4. Max 2 rounds (high ie. length) above another on the belt. (Only stripper clips and normal SG belt allowed)

5. Box fed open shotgun max 5 rounds on the magazine on open division

6. No revolving tube systems allowed on open division (like Xrail system)

7. Tube fed open shotgun limit to 11 rounds on start signal

8. Tube fed speed loader limited to 6 rounds max.

9. No chest rig allowed

10. No bandoliers allowed

11. Deleting modified division on SG

These issues are going to be voted on GA 2011 Greece

[Vlad]

Those rules are stupid, and this is coming from the guy who doesn't even like shooting shotgun and is always outclassed in gear because he shoots a 7 shot pump mossberg with a some shells in a cheap belt thrown over the shoulder Poncho Via style. However wrote these rules (*cough*lets pretend we don know*cough*) has forgotten what the roots of this game were.

The IPSC constitution still says

Practical shooting competition is a test of expertise in the use of practical firearms and equipment.

So we are going to ban side saddles, chest rigs, bandoleers, box fed guns (cause 5 rounds is a laugh), and ammo location in general. Sure, you can argue that revolving tubes and speed loaders are not "practical" on the other hand action shooters have polished the design and use of technology that was futuristic at the time and it is now common place in military and police use.

Oh wait .. I found this other gem in the IPSC site that explains it all

Although the roots are martial in origin, the sport matured from those beginnings, just as karate, fencing, and archery developed from their origins.

Oh good, well at least that explains the airgun division.

[bigbrowndog]

Here is a practical tidbit I learned from the Xrail maker,...............he apparently has a contract to provide the system to a federal law enforcement division, so much for "it ain't practical"

trapr

[A33435]

My gues is that one way or another the next argument will be that 'we' dont wanne look like paramilitary.

Thus we shouldnt use their equipment.

Ofcours myself have a different vieuw on this subject.

Best thing to do at the moment is to have the RD of your region stand up against mentioned proposals at GA2010

and get the most extreme proposals of the agenda at GA2011 so they wont be there to vote about at all.

Greetings

Adrie

[Vlad]

I'd think the best thing would be to stop talking to them or shoot their matches, but thats just me.

[Colodrew]

Attracting new shooters or experienced shooters that have never competed to join the fun should be the task at hand. I don't understand how making it look like some fancy pants partridge hunt will do that. Besides we already have that game and it's called sporting clays.

The next proposed rule will be sticking your pinky finger out on your weak hand while shooting.

[Sabot]

wow!

[Jim Norman]

And it was strongly denied that the upper management at IPSC said that they'd like to remove gunpowder from the sport.

Airsoft Division? Load two in SG only? seems like we might be headed down that road after all.

Jim

[Sterling White]

Ducks fear me!

[wgnoyes]

I can sum up...

"We know best, anyone who disagrees is a troll and a thug, and no, we don't have to explain anything to anyone...thug troll..."

There, saved ya 10 pages of evasion and side-stepping

This is why we have our own rulebooks, so when it all boils away to nothing, we don't have to care what the IPSC GA does.