Shooting while running

[Deaf Smith]

Today, I and some IDPA friends were practicing. We practices speed reloads (by putting only one round in each of the magazines and reloading from slide lock and shooting as fast as we could accurately shoot.) We also practiced shooting on the move. Catch is, we did the baby step moves, tried the shuffle, a form of side steeping, and then, on a lark, I just ran as fast as I could. The targets were 5 yards away, and we ran parallel to the target stands.

Well, did not shoot half bad. First time around, shooting on shot per target (3 targets), got C zone type hits on all three. But after 2 runs, started getting all A zone (or 5 point zones depending on which target we fletched from the garbage bin.)

Now the question. Any one here experiment with running fast while shooting? Any technique to be more accurate?

Deaf

[Bob Hostetter]

I use a trick that I learned from the H&K MP-5 class I took a few years ago. As the distance to the target and speed of movement increases bend your knees a little more. Also bend your elbows to bring the gun closer into your body. This tends to decrease the amount of bounce or up/down motion that your body transfers to the gun.

[charles]

I remember seeing a drill that had you run at full speed at  targets and engage them as you pass.  If anyone remebbers this drill please repost it.  I was unable to find it again.  Thanks Charles

[Flexmoney]

New, resurrected shooting on the move thread...

[charles]

Thanks Flex   that was not the specific thread I was looking for but very informative.  Maybe I read about the drill on another site  but it seemed to usefull to be anywhere other than here.

[Flexmoney]

New, resurrected shooting on the move drill - Devil's Triangle

[Les Snyder]

Deaf... I use a combination of the aforementioned... squat a little, shoot when the left foot hits the ground, a little more flex in the arms, think like you are carrying a glass of water....If you dont use the weak thumb forward grip it really helps....grip pistol so that the weak hand thumb would be positioned in the palm of the strong hand (if the pistol were not in the way)so that it (the weak thumb) is parallel with the trigger finger, and can index on the target, just as the trigger finger would if it were pointing...relax the thumb to keep it parallel.. regards Les

[JFD]

Like a big moron I have yet to practice firing while running in any way, shape, or form.

Hmmmmmm...wonder if that's why the field stages eat me alive?

Reading this thread has alerted me to practice shooting while moving.  I honestly can't remember what I do in a match as far as shooting on the move goes.  Somehow I get from one end to the other and all the targets get shot, that's about all I know.

While I live in the suburbs, I'm thinking of setting up stages in my backyard and shooting them with my 686 and those Speer plastic cases and bullets that are primer powered.  So far shooting the revolver has only improved my auto shooting, so I expect no damage will be done.  I don't know if those things can tolerate speed loaders or not, as mine will have to be dug up from the depths of the garage.  

Even 6 rounds would be good practice.

I can set up targets at various ranges at the club, but any movement would be frowned upon.  This has value, but all my stage "practice" occurs during matches.

I think either the Speer "ammo" or some sort of semi-auto air pistol might help me improve to a great degree.  The neighbors might think I'm nuts, but that would be a small price to pay.

Any thoughts?

[gmshtr]

JFD,

You may want to look into one of those Air Soft pistols.  You can do an internet search on "air soft" and find some really good deals.  They'll go through paper, but that's about it.  I'm planning on buying a number of them for new shooter classes I will be teaching in the near future.  They look JUST like the real thing, but they're audibly unintrusive.  I've shot them indoors using old carpet as a backstop.  Hope this helps.

Phil S.

[jhgtyre]

JFD,

You may want to check local laws about discharging a firearm in a residential area before you touch off the revo even with "fake" bullets.  Local law enforcement may not care what kind of ammo is used and then you will find yourself in all kinds of trouble.

The airsoft idea is pretty good.  There is even an SVI Limited gun that is made by one of the airsoft companys.  I handled one at a gun show and it even has some recoil.  Not much, but some.

Good luck,

-jhgtyre

[JFD]

The primer might just be enough to qualify this "ammo" as real, so I will likely shelve this idea.  

I'll have to check out the airsoft guns.  I don't care if it only dents the paper since that's all I need to see where I hit.  It's the movement and shooting that I need to practice.

It seems like I remember seeing semi-auto air pistols at Wal-mart, so I may look there as well.  I don't remember if they had a 1911 looking gun, but I remember seeing a look-alike for my S&W 1006.

[shred]

the Walmart guns aren't near as good as the real gas-operated Airsofts.  Poke around on http://www.redwolfairsoft.com and places like that for the whole scoop.  

[ErikW]

Dude, you've got a revolver, you're all set, and way better off than the rest of us single action bottom feeders. Just practice dry firing your empty gun on the move.

Practicing shooting on the move doesn't require live ammo. In fact, you probably don't even want to dry fire when you first try it, just watch your sights and see how they move in relation to your foot movement. Once you come up with some footwork that allows for short periods of undisturbed sighting, you can start dry firing.

As a novice, try straight ahead first, then backing up, then lateral and diagonal movement. I find it's easier to shoot moving straight to or back from the target. Lateral movement requires some coordinated feet-crossing.

Once you get to real live ammo practice, don't worry if your split times seem slow. Even one second splits on the move produce quicker course times than shoot-run-shoot with fast splits.

[Detlef]

again(andagainandagain...) I find calling the shots critical. I used to worry about each and every shot on the move, shooting slow splits and moving slowly. Now I concentrate more on shooting almost the pace when standing, moving more quickly and calling my shots; when it's off I shoot again. For me, that's faster than making sure every shot hits. But everyone is different...

--Detlef

[pimp]

the SV airsoft pistol is great for doin stuff at home like shooting on the move I have actually set stuff up in my house ,like doing a house clearing at break neck speed it is a riot and good practice  the pellets are round plastic things that you can reuse if they dont

chip . you can put pillows or something behind the targets just to keep them from bouncing around  (pellets).  Speed Shooters International sells them , you can find there add in front site also I think Angus Hobdell is selling them also , I don't have any info on that but if you know him ask him................Also it fits my speed rig no prob. I have a Safariland 012  fits right in there !!!.... Later

[BBoyle]

Deaf

Just my opinion on shooting on the move.

Although I haven't shot in competition at all recently I have practiced a little when I have the time.

When I shoot on the move I am running in an almost crouch, going pretty fast, with my elbows slightly bent as they always are.  

I time the shots between my steps after one foot is on the ground and the other is in the air moving in any direction. The shots are fired at this point because I have the least interfearing motion.  

The amount of shots taken are determined by 1)the distance of the targets and 2) tightness of the shots as well as 3) the speed that I am moving (also determined by 1&2).

Depending on these factors I can engage 1 or more targets with one or more shots in between steps.  You do not want to fire a shot as either foot is coming into contact with the ground as this will cause a slight shock throughout your entire body.  

You can practice this with dryfire, you will see that there is the least amount of upper body movement between the steps and that is when you take your shots.

How many targets, shots, etc and the speed that you are able to do it and how fast you are able to move is all dependent on your own abilities.

Brian

[Deaf Smith]

Outstanding guys! I must have 10 comments, from not only this thread, but the two others mentioned. Plus some drills.

The vidio camera sounds good (our camera is obsolete, bought it 10 years ago, now this Sony would not even get 10 bucks in a pawn shop!)

Also the water glass trick and air-soft guns (but I have my AACK .22 unit, so that will sufice.)

Might try this. I have a rubber gun (from karate disarming practice) I mounted a laser pen on (by drilling a whole in the trigger guard and using a staple to keep it aligned. Added Glock plastic sights to the top.

I used it indoors, aiming at light swithes, but one cannot run fast in the house! And outdoors, unless it is dark, one cannot see the red laser light. So, it has limited uses.

Thanks, I have cut and pasted your suggestions and will try them out on the range.

Deaf

[benos]

Flex,

You're the greatest!

be

[Flexmoney]

Found another one...on Matt Burkett's site:

http://www.mattburkett.com/move.html

[tightloop]

Since IDPA puts such emphasis on shooting while moving, would shooting while running pay any dividends considering the fact that your movement at IDPA matches is limited to 10 yds or less?

[DogmaDog]

Well, for me, running is not better.  I just start hitting the -3 zone when I do.  I also find that concentrating on shooting during a certain part of my step is too much for me to think about.  For me, a nice slide-n-glide works.  

I do sprint like crazy from one position to another when not shooting, though.

Semper Fi,

DogmaDog

[Steve Moneypenny]

hummm.... thinking for a moment. point A-point B takes 10 seconds while "walking" same distance takes 6-7 seconds while moving faster.....

simply, moves as fast as you can hit. in the above instance a down 2 points maybe you have gained a second.

lets define shooting on the move

one moves while firing controlled accurate rounds at threat targets

lets define running

fast movement from stationary point to the other. generally as much speed as you can muster. no shooting involved.

so, how fast you MOVE while shooting is up to you, it is also determined by how fast you can shoot.

also think of it this way, say your a somewhat intermediate shooter.

so, target is 5 seconds away and you will be running by it, the next target is close that, now, if you draw ( say 2 seconds) ((shooting on move many times drops draw time)) you are now 3 seconds from target one first shot broke, and second shot broke at 2.5 seconds. transition 3 seconds. 3.25 forth shot broke.

all is good. but move too fast... and ut oh.... your breaking the 180 (endangering bystanders)

so, is it always good to move fast. no, do you want to dwaddle no... what seperates masters from ss and ex is knowing what to do where, on a stand and shoot drill, MOST experts won't be far behind the pack of masters.

hope all of that was coherent. if not just ask, email, or IM me for clarification.

[tightloop]

If you can shoot accurately while moving at a walk, what would it take to learn to shoot accurately at a run.

If you could get a handle on that it would put miles ahead of anyone else who had to walk.  Is there a technique to be learned to help you shoot while running.

[Larrys1911]

Tightloop,

It all depends on the distance to the tgt!

I have learned that I can hit a IDPA (double tap) at almost a full bore run when moving perp to the tgt at under 7yds! Beyond that I HAVE to slow down!

Is there a Technique that works for it- dont know!

I can tell you that the way I learned it was doing it.

Practice Practice Practice

I think I have used it exactly ONE time since I ran the drills on it over a year ago!

Maybe that will help!

Larry P

Its better to burn out...than to fade away!

[Steve Moneypenny]

Like larrys1911 said. practice. you have to be able to get your hits while moving first, then the faster you can get your hits the better, then finally moving faster and getting hits faster. if you move fast and get slow or bad hits, its a problem, and you will look real funny backing up to shoot  target, and sometimes runover a saftey/range officer.

basically think of your upper body like a tank turret, your lower body like the tracks, if you have ever seen the newer tanks move, they can run across a desert that looks like a washboard ( lots of humps for those realllly young uncultured folks) and the turret stays dead on the target. i don't know how they do it, but your body stays put your feet move. its not easily done unless your very coordinated or a natural shooter to start with.

to quote armando valdez ( please excuse any miss spelling of the name and a possible praphrazing) on ipsc "when i left this sport we shot on the move, now everyone is running the pace has really picked up"  His absence was due to a knee surgery.