the duck of death Posted March 19, 2010 Share Posted March 19, 2010 Case life is excellent w/G34 open gun using a KKM barrel/comp. 121gr MG/8.3gr HS-6 or 7.6gr Silhouette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH45 Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 I don't have a clue as to how many loadings I can get out of .38 Supercomp brass because most of the ranges I shoot at have a lot of grass, and my pistol likes to throw the empties in to the next county, so, if I'm having a really lucky day, I get 1/2 of my brass back. I picked up a used 9mm a couple of years ago, and have been lucky enough to be able to keep it supplied with once-fired, Winchester brass for abou $100, for a large, flat-rate box full, which is about 3,500. I won't even bend over to look for my brass at that price. As far as how they shoot, they are both as accurate as each other, but, they are completely different guns so I can't really compare how they shoot, but, I like them both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noidlight Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 Love my 9 major. If I don't have a chance to pick up my brass at a match....I don't get too upset about it. When I need more brass, I look in the brass bucket in my club and there it is. I haven't had to buy brass yet. The best part is my gun eats everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 But anyway, I heard of a guy who is using 38 in a Tang but thats about it. Yeah... his name is Eric Grauffel and he wins every damn match he shoots! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 But anyway, I heard of a guy who is using 38 in a Tang but thats about it. Yeah... his name is Eric Grauffel and he wins every damn match he shoots! Yes and he is shooting Plated Bullets "Frontier". The Tang 9 mm guns don't run with big sticks, its a mag problem. The guy could probably shoot a Bersa and still win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usmc1974 Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 The magazine length of a glock will not work for 38 super so if a person wants an open glock, it will be in 9mm. MLM Maybe it is just me, but that would be a very cool gun. Glock 38 super. 38 supers get close to 357 vel/energys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 1) In making the case for equal brass cost, the proponents create a worst case scenario for 9mm brass and a best case scenario for 38 super. Unless you shoot in an acrylic fish bowl with a lid, you don't get 100% of your super brass back. I would bet the best recovery rate is 85-90% in good range conditions and more likely in the 80% range normally. I also know here in the winter and early spring you can count on single digit recovery rates. And let's not forget lost brass matches. I have about a 95% brass recovery rate, give or take. I've not spoken to a Major 9 shooter yet who claims getting more than 5-6 major PF loads out of their brass - and quite a number of them follow a "fire and forget" policy, shooting the brass once and leaving it. If you average out all the folks I've spoken to about it, they get 2-3 loads out of their brass. Let's look at it a different way, that accounts for brass attrition. I spend about $200 a year in brass, basically replacing brass lost at major matches. If I were shooting Major 9, and following "fire and forget", I'd be spending more like $350-400, possibly more. 2) Assuming the brass cost is equal, the bonus of 9mm brass is that while super shooters are busy doing a chicken impersonation, I am preparing for the next stage, socializing, relaxing, enjoying the fact that my back and knees are not sore Nice job, litter boy The local club requires all brass be picked, regardless of whether the shooter wants it or not, so... no economy there for us. But, those of us who've been playing this game for quite a while are rather efficient at picking brass... And anyone who shoots with me can tell you I'm well prepared for the next stage, I get plenty of socializing done, and I certainly don't have sore knees or back after a match. I submit, sir, in the most loving and friendly way possible, that you are just lazy... 3) The argument that the big dogs are still running super is somewhat specious as well. From a performance standpoint, there has been little evidence of a significant performance difference (accuracy, reliability, etc) So if I already have a brass and bullet sponsor or better yet the brown truck is dropping off Atlanta Arms by the caselot, why would I change. Conversely if I am a solid M,A,B shooter getting into open or even the first time open shooter, there are advantages to 9mm that do not present themselves to the shooter already invested in 38 super. The bottom line there is nothing holding a person back with a properly built 9 except perception. I don't agree. You're assuming that the top shooters are lazy, as well. They're trying out every thing they can get their hands on to find whatever edge they can. Do you really think that, if the equipment and ammo is free, that they simply just keep truckin' with what they've got, just because it's easier? That shows a rather poor understanding of competitive desire and spirit. Quite a number of these guys that you assume aren't changing just because they get their stuff for free have tried Major 9 and decided to not make the switch, for various reasons. And, it's also rather disingenuous to paint with a broad brush that all shooters at the top have full ride sponsorships, and therefore their experience is discountable (because quite a number of them don't... and because even if they do, their experience is perfectly valid in determining what works best). What the hell does a bullet sponsorship have to do with anything, anyway? Both cartridges run the same bullets... So, aside from cost of brass, what are your "advantages to 9mm that do not present themselves to the shooter already invested in 38 super"??? 4) Reliability wise, it always puzzles me that if an open shooter has a malf with a super, everyone starts looking for a cause....extractor, magazine, springs, etc. etc. But if a open shooter has a malf with a 9mm everyone immediately blames the cartridge, when in fact the malf still boils down to the mechanical components and their respective fitting. The gun has to be built correctly. I know most smith's agree that there is a little more work to properly setup a 9 vs setting up a super, however, once its right it's right. I have said this so many times, but I am right around 45k rounds through my 9 using unsorted range brass..no sorting or voodoo magic just clean, load and shoot, zero problems. Yes, not a single malf that could not be attributed to bad ammo or a worn recoil or mag spring, and only a very few of those. 9mm can definitely be made to run in a 1911 platform gun. No doubt about that. It definitely must be done right... but the same could be said for any racegun, in any caliber. What makes 9x19 harder in that platform is that the cartridge wants to have a shorter OAL than the platform was designed for, which basically means the tolerances are a lot smaller (which is why it takes more work...). You're absolutely correct, though, that the problems boil back to the same mechanical issues. What it boils back to for me is two things - I have yet to find a Major 9 load that works as well for me as any of my pet .38 Super loads (subjectively or objectively), and the lower tolerances of the 9x19 platform in a 1911 gun (which means I can't run the spring set up that works best for me, and I have to keep a closer eye on maintenance). Yes, I buy my brass. Yes, I buy my bullets. Yes, I buy my powder and my primers. I receive no discounts or concessions or sponsorships from any of those suppliers. When I go to a major match, I shoot once fired brass (because I want no chances at all of having an ammo problem of any flavor... and fresh brass minimizes brass related issues). I consider ammo cost to be a cost of doing business. If Major 9 performed better for me in the areas that mattered, I would make the switch. I want to win - and I will take every (legal) advantage I can get. There's a strong reason I'm not shooting Major 9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 (edited) The Tang 9 mm guns don't run with big sticks, its a mag problem. Edit... sorry, I misread this... Missed the 9mm part... Doesn't run with big sticks in... the large frame or the small frame? Back in the day, I had a 9x21 in a small frame Tangfoglio (well, EAA, but...), and it ran just fine with 27... The guy could probably shoot a Bersa and still win. I've shot a Bersa. If Eric shot a Bersa, I could take him Edited March 24, 2010 by XRe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcs Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 Three years ago I started OPEN with a custom 9 Major built by my smith. I had several more built with different configurations. The guns ran 100%. I never had issues with my brass. The reason I started with 9 Major was brass (did not want to pick brass up). Then, 9 once fired WIN brass was $18 a thousand. Now once fired WIN brass is $100 for 3K. A year ago I bought my 38SC just to see if there was an advantage to 38SC now that brass is comparable. I do not have any 9 Major guns now and I have two 38SC guns. I found 38SC to shoot softer and I have a greater range of powders to play with than 9 Major guns. My mags do not require any special parts or tuning to run 38SC. Yes, I loose brass at major matches. I only pick up brass at our indoor range. I run my indoor brass till I see cracks or the primers fall out. I would never reload 9 brass like a do 38SC, even if I picked 9 brass up. 115 loads really stress the hell out of 9 brass. (IMHO) I still feel 38SC is the way to go when you look at the big picture and don't focus on just the cost of brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rgkeller Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 (edited) For those who shoot several practice rounds for every round they shoot in matches, the brass costs between super and nine major are negligble and perhaps even favor super for those fortunate enough to recover most of their brass at local matches. For those who shoot mostly at lost brass or hard to find brass matches and whose practice consists mostly of dry fire, nine major can be a savings. If a smith cannot get a nine major open pistol to function 100%, I would not let him build me a super pistol either. Edited March 24, 2010 by rgkeller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 I have both a 9mm and 38 SC custom open guns. I spent Monday afternoon comparing the guns. I honestly prefer the 38 SC to the 9mm and wish I could find somebody that was in the same position but liked the 9mm better. I am going to sell or trade my 9mm gun for another 38 SC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted March 24, 2010 Share Posted March 24, 2010 When a lot of people switched over to 9 major or 38 supercomp, they gave me their old 38 super brass.. and since I shoot 38 super in a revo, I can get way more than the 8-10 reloads since I'm shooting it way below it's max operating pressure.. I can shoot it till it splits... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted March 25, 2010 Share Posted March 25, 2010 The magazine length of a glock will not work for 38 super so if a person wants an open glock, it will be in 9mm. MLM Maybe it is just me, but that would be a very cool gun. Glock 38 super. 38 supers get close to 357 vel/energys Close nothing! If loaded right, it will surpass 357 velocity and power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 New 38 super brass is sold at about 170 Euro per 1000 pcs in Germany and Austria. That's the reason why 9 major is prefered here. Alex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 (edited) New 38 super brass is sold at about 170 Euro per 1000 pcs in Germany and Austria. That's the reason why 9 major is prefered here. Alex I have deligently worked with my full size 38 super gun for 2 years to perfect it and its load to shoot soft and flat and achieved that goal to be as good as any other gun I have shot. With that in mind I have been a detractor for both shorty guns and 9 mm major. File this under A blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while. My 9 mm major shorty which started out as a horrible shooting gun, with some dilligent effort a different comp some spring changes and a tungsten guide rod, shoots just as well as my 38 Super Full size gun which is comprably configured, same comp, but different load and springs. I bought a used top end had the barrel welded up and refit to my frame by my smith, stuffed a mag in it from my 9 mm limited SVI and the gun runs 100% all the time makes power factor with no issues and shoots soft and flat, and I'm going to say it is sweet. Adding the tungsten guid rod and an 11# recoils spring just flattened the gun out and took the snap right out of it, making it fun to shoot and very easy to control. Bottom line 9 mm major is viable and seems to perform just as well as 38 Super, when the gun is tuned to the loads and it runs. There are more powders for 38 Super and it has an advantage when shooting 115gr or 121gr but in the 125gr things are fairly equal across the board. This constitues a flip flop on my part but I'm not running for president, you learn you change your mind. With 2 38Supers and the 9 major shorty the 9 major is going to be the one I shoot at Space City in 2 weeks, because I can shoot it faster regardless of the caliber or brass. If I have to replace a barrel in one of the other two guns it will likely get a 9 mm rather than 38 Super. Edited March 31, 2010 by CocoBolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Titanium (Ti) guide rod or tungsten (W) guide rod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Titanium (Ti) guide rod or tungsten (W) guide rod? Thanks for catching my typo thought Tungsten typed Titanium. No the tungsten adds a couple ounces froward of the trigger, and in this case the gun was nose light with a 3 oz Brazos cone comp and the shorter lighter slide. It is just slightly nose heavy with the heavier guide rod. I tried it with aluminum, steel, and then tungsten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Spiess Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Close nothing! If loaded right, it will surpass 357 velocity and power. Exactly. SAAMI max pressure for .357 Mag is 35K, 38 Super+P is 36,500, and I'm sure none of us exceed that either The original 38 ACP max pressure rating is 26,500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 Maybe it is just me, but that would be a very cool gun. Glock 38 super. 38 supers get close to 357 vel/energys Close nothing! If loaded right, it will surpass 357 velocity and power. No, it really won't...Super doesn't have enough case capacity to do that. VV's hotest load for Super with a 124gr bullet is 11gr of N105 that at 1,594fps. You can get a little bit more than 11gr in a Super case, but not much. Then pop over to their .357Mag load using a 125gr bullet and N110....18.4gr and they show a velocity of 1,772fps. Heck, they list loads with 180gr bullets that are nearly 1,400fps Super is probably my favorite pistol cartridge, but it can't outperform .357Mag. Still, that's not what the thread is about. For the folks talking about brass recovery rates as a deciding factor, I kept careful track the other day and shot 300 rounds in practice and picked up 298 when I left. I'm sure I could have found the other two if I wanted to take the time. I think the key to recovering you brass is marking it. I use sharpie in the extractor groove and it makes it much easier to spot Obviously not all range surfaces are the same, but I can live with losing a case or two per session. My club requires us to pick up our brass so I'm bending over to retrieve it either way...might as well reuse it. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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