ong45 Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 I was reading an article on shooting technique in the handgunner, A well known pro offers the opinion that most shooters nowdays are hosers and that the general ability of shooting nowdays is in great decline. He offered this story as proof, a student of his (who supposedly placed in the top 30 in the open nationals) was also supposedly not able to get all 6 shots slowfire on an ipsc target at 25 yards!!! This with a well built open gun. Incidentaly this "pro" did NOT win the nationals. This comment pisses me off and i doubt if it is entirely truthful. Comments? James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 Hey...I read that. I can't really see anybody that placed in the Top30 at the Nationals (even hosers) not being able to hit the target at 25y with an Open gun...unless their dot was off. The article said the shooter was "about to move to Master". If he was talking about this year's Open Nats, then there aren't too many choices in the Top30 that aren't Master or highier already. And, last year, there is only one non-Master + in the Open Top30. But, I kinda agree with the general message of the article. Stage design should test ALL the skills we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 I shoot at Doug's home range at Topton and the comment surprised the crap out of me too. There are some damn good shooters in the area and any one of the B class and up can shoot groups. The MD loves standards. I hope the statement was the Typical AH twisting of the truth against IPSC. You might survive in the lower classes on speed alone but you hit B and up and you damn sure better not be dropping points left and right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bulm5 Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Tha's why I stopped buying AH. Don't know what they have against IPSC. Oh I know , I don't practice anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Yea It was a poor and incorrect statement. I wondered who/what Doug was talking about. I can easily shoot six at 25 in 4.xx seconds in the A zone or a quick 3 inch group offhand in a little longer time . Oh and I sight in and practice groups at that distance with a 2 inch paster. Any A or above is at that skill level or better if they win. There are not too many A's who place "regularly" in the top 30. It takes that to win A at the Nationals and guess what, next match you are a M. I canceled sub to AH a long time ago. I wish they would grow up since it is the most professional "looking" gun mag. Great pics. Its sad that real shooters get in their to espouse their negative and usually incorrect views. PS I have shot a while and I think there are a lot more good shooters now than there were 10 -15 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Well, there's also the evidence that supports his claim. I shot Merle's Standards a few weeks ago and had a mike on the 35 yard target. And one on each of the other two! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Instead of all the conjecture and anecdotal evidence, an examination of how classifier scores have varied through the ages would seem to offer more conclusive proof or refuation of the claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Well, there's also the evidence that supports his claim. I shot Merle's Standards a few weeks ago and had a mike on the 35 yard target. And one on each of the other two! Oh now you go around making us all look bad. Thanks, rhino I have missed at 3 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Instead of all the conjecture and anecdotal evidence, an examination of how classifier scores have varied through the ages would seem to offer more conclusive proof or refuation of the claim. Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 I have been reading Am. Handgunner for about 3 years and they have always had an axe to grind with IPSC vs. IDPA. This is just more of the same . The last article that got me riled up was about the "genuine" IDPA el Prez vs. the watered down IPSC El Prez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 It is quite ridiculous... particularly considering how poorly the magazine is edited. Great photos, bad content, bad editing: bad magazine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ong45 Posted December 24, 2003 Author Share Posted December 24, 2003 Among the people who finished in the 20's in the 2003 open nationals are some well known "hosers" like Taran Butler, Don Bednorz and Frank Garcia. If you can't win, criticize the game. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul B Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 I finally gave up on this magazine because of articles like that. Isn't it owned or edited by the same guy who was threatening to set up IPSC U.S. when USPSA and IPSC had a disagreement over the rules? I sure would like to know how USPSA pooped in their soup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 You all sound suprised??? Come on, Ken Hackethorn is one of the editors. I read the article also, and lets not forget that Doug did win the World Shoot (among many other things) so he is entitled to an opinion, and it is just that. Perhaps the game changed, and DK didn't. Maybe not. I just wonder how much it (the article) was edited. IDPA must be proud to have such a widely circulated and successful periodical that supports their membership and cause (at the expense of USPSA/IPSC) like American Handgunner. (posters note: this is not an indictment of IDPA or its members, only American Handgunner and its editors). I also believe they also only publish articles on USPSA written by such people as Patrick Sweeney so they don't appear 100% biased Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 The American Handgunner is a far cry from the quality magazine it once was. The pictures are the only part that are top notch. I dropped my subscription the first year they didn't cover the Bianchi Cup. That would be like Autoweek not being at the Monaco Grand Prix! It just sucks. The AH now is nothing but series of short paragraphs with beginners in mind. Composed by sub par writers and editors who are obsessed with cutlery. They can keep it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Back to the topic, I agree that the average level of marksmanship has declined. It's been at least 4 years since I've seen a target at more than 35 yrds. at a local match. If they put a target out at 50 yrds. no more than 10% of the competitors would be prepared. The lynch mob would be ugly. Check the standards from Nationals past. How many come close to their classification? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Back to the topic, I agree that the average level of marksmanship has declined I was the Duty CRO at our range on practice day recently and was minding the bay where we usually set up a simulation stage for new shooter practice. So I set up this little speed shoot involving a barricade and 6 poppers at 12-15 yards, and 1 full paper at 15 yards. I also set up a Vice Presidente (facing targets at 7 yards), and a Bill Drill just to test some fundamentals. The group of newer shooters that I ran through these were for the most part unable to drop a US, or full popper at 12 yards with less than 2-3 rounds, and not a one posted 2 A's on the full paper at 15 yards. In fact only once out of a dozen runs did anyone even get 2 on the paper at all. The Vice Presidente had most of them trying for sub 5 second runs, but after all was said and done they were getting in at 9-10 seconds with an average of 5-7 lousy hits on paper. I will not even get into the Bill Drill results, but lets just say that 3.3 seconds, 3 non-A hits, and 3 mikes does not constitute anything resembling a good run no matter how cool you look doing it for the girlfriends digital video camera. Another disturbing feature I saw exhibited was a lightning fast draw coupled with a similar "high cool factor" lightning fast re-holster after LAMR and UASC (Unload And Show Clear). Had to issue a few cautions about about sweeping the weak hand while re-holstering, and about warp speed not being required for this maneuver. A fast smooth draw only comes from a modicum of practice and they all exhibited that. But what type of practice is it that delivers no capability at all of actually making a decent shot at reasonabley close range after the way cool fast draw. The topper was when I heard some complaining about this not being very much fun and that they would rather do something with some "run-n-gun" in it because that is "lot's more fun". Yeeesh! Me-thinks that next time I will be setting up a classifier stage and that will be that ;-) Happy Holidays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 The AH now is nothing but series of short paragraphs with beginners in mind. Composed by sub par writers and editors who are obsessed with cutlery. Agreed! I am not renewing my current subscription when it runs out. I have been getting it since 1987 and it is definitely not the magazine it once was. I am going to speak with my wallet and keep it in my pocket when the renewal notice shows up. BTW, the "Real Prez" thing made me bristle a tad too. The IDPA is better than IPSC (USPSA) undertone there is a bad thing and no good will come from it. Happy Holidays, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ong45 Posted December 25, 2003 Author Share Posted December 25, 2003 Few people shoot into their class at nationals. This is true down to A class (as far as i could figure from the results from 1995 to the present) This hasn't appeared to have changed much , so maybe this is a question of whether the top 5 or so guys are so far ahead that the classification system is broke (new subject?) Maybe some of the older timers remember if a bigger percentage of shooters shot their classification pre 1995. Does anyone think that the stages from the last 4 or so nationals were easy? James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 I hate that AH articles are all one page MTV style blurbs now. But I do think there are too many stages at my matches with a whole lot of close up targets that you just hose. I am starting to see what might be a backlash, though...with more no-shoots and farther targets. Hopefully that continues. Anybody else notice that it's very easy to pick out the classifier from the other stages at a club match? Why should they be so different? DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 The American Handgunner is a far cry from the quality magazine it once was. I agree on this, since I've been a regular subscriber since 1992. But I can't totally agree on the following: The AH now is nothing but series of short paragraphs with beginners in mind. Composed by sub par writers and editors who are obsessed with cutlery. Yes, the paragraphs are no longer those we've been accustomed to (I can recall the Pistolsmithing section and the cop talk ones were a little more explicative), but I don't agree that the whole magazine has gone this way: at least Mas' articles are still the top level we were used to, and the handloading section from Charles Petty is still very comprehensive. I'll miss Commander Gilmore humor (the 10-Ring) for sure, but I can understand his desire to take a break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 As for the first part of the thread, Doug Koenig. He has nothing to prove to anyone. I listen to his opinion & find some merit to it. Found the article online, for free. Regarding AH Mag: Trader posted a great reply. Agree 100%. AH magazine now seems fascinated with $500 "fighting" knives and $2500 "true" carry guns. Look thru the pages - those products are heavily advertised. It's what pays the bills at AH. Fact of life. For a short time there was a nice magazine called Handguns Quarterly. Then that mag (or its parent mag, can't remember) published 3-4 articles saying the Colt All-American 2000 pistol was the greatest thing ever. All downhill from there. The best we can hope for is that some wealthy, charitable soul will help resurrect GunGames Magazine. Many of you know the problems with them taking subscriptions but not publishing a full year, or what have you. Near as I can tell they just didn't have the advertising to make ends meet. Our sport is not really profit-driven at all. Just another fact of life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted December 29, 2003 Share Posted December 29, 2003 Among the people who finished in the 20's in the 2003 open nationals are some well known "hosers" like Taran Butler, Don Bednorz and Frank Garcia.If you can't win, criticize the game. James I was reading this thread with a friend, and very respectful shooter, Henning Wallgren, and he commented - "I don't think it's fair to call Taran a hoser, any longer." He also agreed with me that Don Bednorz and Frank Garcia most certainly are not hosers. They're both solid shooters. I agree with Henning's assessment of Taran. While Tarran started out as a hoser, he should no longer be considered one. He has learned how to shoot. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted December 30, 2003 Share Posted December 30, 2003 I have yet to read the article, I too cancelled my subscription a long time ago. I'm currently trying to find the article on-line. Personally, I feel that the top shooters are better than ever and there are more of them than ever as well. Doug has been shooting for a long time and maybe Big Dave hit the nail on the head. Perhaps the game changed, and DK didn't No disrespect to DK intended.BTW, I thought there were enough tight shots at the Nat's to keep it an honest match. Remember "Eye Chart Standards"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ong45 Posted December 30, 2003 Author Share Posted December 30, 2003 I hope no one mistook my post as critical of Taran. Any top 30 shooter (including the afforementioned shooters) cartainly would have no trouble shooting 30 yd. groups. Actually i wouldn't give myself an even chance of beating him with my open gun ( with him shooting limited) Even with the watered down nationals of 2002, it is unlikely you will anyone in the top 30 who can't hit at 30 yds. I am used to reading articles that criticize our sport . It is one thing to be slammed by non shooting gun writers and swat wannabe's, but to have one of our own quoted like this bull. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts