mic2377

If you want to mainly shoot suppressed... do yourself a favor and get a barrel with a pistol gas system. A carbine gas may or may not cycle well with subsonics, but no matter what the pistol gas will give you a lot more latitude to function reliably with subs. I experimented with both, and ended up with a Noveske 16" pistol gas barrel. With a properly sized gas port, no adjustable gas is necessary. I have shot every combination through my Noveske with good reliability. The lightweight carrier is not necessarily your friend. There are 3 levels of dirty - unsuppressed, suppressed, and subsonic suppressed. Subsonic suppressed makes for the filthiest rifle imaginably and I could easily foresee problems with functioning with a lightweight system. I would take up reloading because you will see HUGE cost savings with subsonic ammo. My upper will run subs with anything from 190 gr HPBT's to 230 gr cast bullets, and my 0.35 to 0.40 cent/round subs are a WAYYY better deal than $25+/box factory subsonic ammo.

That sounds pretty awesome, can't wait to hear the results. I had actually considered getting a barrel in 6 XC for my 308 AR, but elected to go with the 6.5 CM as it would also be used as a hunting rifle. I assume the reason you picked 6 Creedmoor vs the other 6 mm cartridges? (ie 243, 6 XC, etc.) was brass availability.

2000 MR has good potential - it is like RL-15 in burn rate, but extremely dense and high energy, allowing more to be fit into the case. This is one of the few powders that I have really experimented with over factory max in the 223, and seen ZERO pressure signs. I was using Hornady 75 BTHP's, with powder charges I will not mention, but will say they were >100% load density. Unfortunately I did not chrono these. Accuracy was OK, in the 1.0-1.2 MOA range. It has provided EXCELLENT performance and velocity in 308, with both light and heavy bullets. In fact, it was capable of matching .30-06 velocities from a 22-24" barrel from an 18" barrel AR in 308. The one caveat was that accuracy was very "hit or miss" across the load data range, IE is was less consistently accurate or tolerant of different load ranges.

I have used 23.5 gr of Varget under either a Hornady 75 BTHP or Nosler 77 CC with good success, with an OAL = 2.250. I would recommend CCI-450 primers - I have had one or two CCI-400's pierce with this load, even though they were not flattened. As the BR4's are the same cup thickness as the 450's, I would imagine they would work just as well. This was from a Nordic 18" 1/8 twist barrel.

I just picked up a Versamax, albeit the 26" Sportsman model. I got a good deal on it and will be modding it for 3 gun. I have also found it to be a b**** to load... thanks to all who have posted their feed latch mods. I don't much to offer for troubleshooting as I just got it but the wealth of information here is amazing. Oh, and the inside of my barrel looked like crap right out of the box, definitely test-fired at this factory. Streaks down the forcing cone all the way.

If you are considering a 1-4x, I would consider other options besides the Nightforce. The VX-6 is a different class of scope entirely - it is very light for a 1-6x, generous eyebox, and excellent illumination. Whether it is worth the $$$ is up to you - you could always look for an used VX-6 and switch the reticle. I have a VX-6 with the #4 reticle that is getting switched over to a CMR-2 as we speak. The Leupold illumination is outstanding, as is the optic quality. I am sure the Nightforce is nice as well but I don't think it is the ideal scope for this game. Honestly though there are alot of great optics out there and it makes for a tough choice. There is also the Burris XTR II 1-5, which I would also put in contention just to muddy the waters a bit more...

I will have the reticle in my VX-6 switched sometime in the next 4-6 weeks, pending Leupold turn-over time. The illumination change that I heard from the Leupold rep concurs with A5H556 - it is the MK4/6 illumination type, not the FireDot.

I personally like the Midwest Industries Gen 2 SS - you can get them in a 15" length, and high or low profile to match the rail of the upper. It comes with a single upper rail, and 3 separate lengths of rail as well. It is slim, very light, and comes with a steel barrel nut and wrench. It is not even than expensive. I already have several of them and they have proven to be durable and easy to service.

I am very excited to see how it turns out. I imagine it will be a nice shooter, Criterions are very good barrels for the $$$. Are you planning on handloading for it? I am planning to focus my load development on 120-123 gr bullets and H4350, although I have some 140 gr bullets as well. Fortunately the factory Hornady ammo is very good and even comes with the load recipe on the side of the box! The are differing opinions regarding upper/barrel fit - I personally believe a properly torqued barrel nut and good quality handguard are more important.

I would switch to a high quality barrel in either 260 Rem or 6.5 Creedmoor. You could get a Lilja, Criterion, or custom of your choice. I have had great luck with Criterion's, and they are available from Fulton Armory for a good price with no wait. I personally bought a custom 24" 6.5 Creedmoor barrel from McGowen, but I have yet to shoot it. The price was reasonable but the wait was ~6 mon. Another option would be a custom in 6XC or 243 Win, but I think the extra barrel life of a 6.5 would push me away from a 6 mm. The AR-15 based 6 mm calibers are limited in potential, and have a tough time running with something like a 123 Scenar @2950-3000 fps. There is no difference in uppers besides just needing a different rail to match the upper height.

After having called Leupold, it turns out the my VX6 can have the reticle switched to the CMR2. However, they did say the illumination is different than the Firedot, and more similar to the MK6. I'm not sure who to believe but the reticle change alone will be a vast improvement on an already very good scope. I'm going to be sending it off sometime in the next few weeks. As for the VX6 to Vortex comparison - they each have their pros/cons. The Vortex is a bit "flatter" with a ridiculously huge FOV, but the VX6 is a lighter and much more compact. They both have large forgiving eyeboxes and excellent glass.

I have a VX-6 - I wish they came out with this reticle earlier. It also looks like it utilizes different illumination than the older VX-6. Besides the reticle, I am happy with it - I'm going to try and call the custom shop and get it switched, which may not be feasible given the illumination.

I am surprised no one has suggested the Leupold VX6 yet. Light, excellent optics, daylight bright illumination, and forgiving eyebox. Perhaps its only weakness is the so-so options for a ranging reticle and a small amount of distortion at 1x. If the XTR II 1-5 is an improved XTR 1-4, I would strongly consider getting that as well. I don't have one but have been looking at it too...

Mine shoots particularly well with 75 gr loads, particularly the Hornady 75 BTHP @ 2.250 OAL, either a CCI-400/450, and 23.5 gr Varget of 25.2 gr 2000-MR.

If you don't have a tumbler or ultrasonic cleaner, you can use other methods to clean your brass. I lived in an apartment for awhile and had to improvise without a noisy device like a tumbler. Depriming is not necessary before cleaning. Here is a method to get you started: Get a sturdy large-sized Tupperware with a lid. Fill half-way with fired cases. Add small amount of Dawn dish soap, some Lemishine (or lemon juice, the citric acid is the active ingredient!), and fill half-way with HOT water. Shake vigorously for several minutes, then rinse thoroughly several times. Dry overnight. You would be AMAZED how clean/shiny the cases come out! The other issue is case lube removal. Get another Tupperware. Fill with sized cases that need lube removed. Spray with brake cleaner (type does not matter, whatever is cheapest from the auto parts store, $2/can, and each can will do 1K of 223 cases!). Cover Tupperware, shake vigorously, dump off excess cleaner. Repeat x 1. The brake cleaner evaporates VERY quickly and the cases will be lube free, even in the inside of the case neck. Using these methods, I have loaded many thousands of high-quality 223, 308, and 9 mm, with no damage or undo wear on my dies. On another note - do you actually need clean primer pockets? In my experience, I have seen ZERO difference. It may make a difference for those in pursuit of EXTREME accuracy, IE benchrest looking for <0.2 MOA accuracy, but definitely not for anyone shooting a semi-auto rifle. Another consideration is that if you are prepping cases with crimped primers, the primer pocket reamer or uniformer generally does a good job of cleaning them out anyways.

Another bullet to try is the Speer 125 TNT's. They are around the same cost as the 110 V-Maxes and can be pushed pretty fast. I have shot a bunch of them in both 300 BLK and 308 and they are accurate enough to get the job done...

I have not found a noticeable difference with small changes in bullet weight, however with a big change (110's vs. 175's) I would have to say the lighter bullets are bit softer. Depending on the load, some of the heavier ones can really thump with the high-velocity modern powders available (a 175 gr with a max load of AA 2000-MR comes to mind). The biggest aid I have felt is getting the gas adjusted correctly, it was a very noticeable decrease in rearward recoil impulse. The comp also helped a lot. They are never going to be nearly as soft/flat as a 223 though, particularly a light run n'gun 308 carbine.

On a 308 AR, I would consider an adjustable gas block an necessity, if the gas system is shorter than rifle-length. Mine is a mid-length and was so overgassed it ripped the rims off of several cases. About the gas system - rifle gas is definitely the way to go! The other upper that I put together - a Criterion 20" barrel, JP Enhanced bolt, and A5 buffer tube w/AR-10 spring and H3 buffer - has NEVER malfunctioned once! It just eats everything (LC, PMC, PPU, hunting ammo, reloads, and surplus!) with excellent accuracy, moderate recoil, and a consistent/perfect ejection pattern. I did not think that reducing extractor tension by removing the O-rings would change anything, but it did. My brass now has NO ejector marks on it - this is likely a combination of minimal gas to run the action and optimal extractor tension. The barrel is a Mega 18" medium profile. The stock is a standard A2 stock.

I recently assembled a DPMS-pattern 308 AR. I had issues initially getting it run, however I was ultimately successful. I figure that this may be useful for those with problem 308 AR's. Components were as follows: SI Defense receiver set CMMG LPK MI SS Gen 2 rail (the newly available DPMS 308 version - what a great handguard!) CMMG MK3 bolt carrier Mega 18" medium profile barrel, mid-length gas Carbine buffer tube, buffer, and spring BCM lo-pro gas block Mags - 308 PMAG's, both 10 and 20 rd iterations First range trip - holy smokes, this thing is overgassed! 1 o'clock ejection pattern, ripped the rims off of several cases, several FTE's where damaged case remained in the chamber and had to be knocked out with a cleaning rod. Also had several stovepipe jams which mangled cases that were not ejected. Recoil was also very stout. Second trip - installed adjustable gas block. Overgassed symptoms were improved, however still had 1-2 stovepipes and still had occasional FTE. Occasionally, when firing last round from mag, spent case was found lying on top of magazine instead of being ejected. Also continued to see very deep extractor marks on brass. Third trip - SUCCESS! - installed A2 rifle stock/buffer setup (308 specific), removed extractor O-rings x 2, polished/lubed ejector+ejector spring, and further tuned gas setting. The rifle was now 100% reliable with both factory ammo and reloads. Consistent 4 o'clock ejection approx. 8 ft, zero malfunctions of any type, and brass looked 100% perfect with no damage. Normally, from all of my reading, the primary issues with 308 AR's are as follows: 1. Overgassed 2. Underbuffered 3. Weak extraction I quickly surmised that it was overgassed, however I did not realize what an improvement the A2 stock system was. The spring has a higher spring rate and weight at rest than the carbine spring, and the buffer is 5.4 vs. 3.4 oz, a significant improvement. The extractor issue however was counter-intuitive. Most 308 AR's have issues with weak extraction, such that a higher power extractor spring and addition of an o-ring improve function. I found, when hand cycling, that the extractor was too strong such that cases tended to hang up in the extractor and bounce back into the action. Upon disassembly of the MK3 bolt, I found that it not only had a double extractor spring, but also 2 stacked O-rings. With removal of the 2 O-rings, the brass was then ejected cleanly. So, I hope this is useful for those who have a troublesome 308 AR - unless there is a major mechanical problem like a rough chamber, out of spec headspace, etc, you can probably fix if you are willing to tinker! Or you can just buy proven components - the other 308 AR I assembled with a Criterion barrel and JP bolt ran has run 100% with not a single malfunction since it was put together.

I believe that is a safe load - perhaps the issue is that the WSR's may be a soft primer compared to the CCI's. I believe that the 24.5 gr of H335 under a 55 gr is a safe load, as would just about any reloader here on BE. Have you tried reducing the load to see if the primer piercing goes away? Also, you may consider replacing your firing pin. Once you pierce a few, the firing pin is damaged by high pressure gas and the piercing issue will worsen. If not replaced in a timely manner, gas-cutting of the bolt can begin to occur.

I have loaded some with 8208 XBR, H335, and IMR 3031. I just used mid-range Hodgdon. data. Despite 40 gr being "too light" for the 18" 1/8 twist barrel I was shooting them from, they still shot very well. I also had no issues with bullets coming apart in flight. If I had to choose a powder I would stick some type of fast ball powder. I only fired ~100 of them so I cannot comment on the heat/barrel erosion concerns that MarkM has had, although it does make sense.

I have a M77 VT in .25-06, and it is also a very good shooter. While not a typical choice for accuracy work, it gets the job done well. The M77 VT in 6.5 CM is a 26 inch barrel, right?

I recently picked up a Nordic Corvette for my 308 AR. It is very compact, and inexpensive to boot. I have not fired the rifle with it yet, but will report back soon...

I'm building a 6.5 Creedmoor gas gun right now, 24" barrel. I was on a bit of budget and have a McGowen on order, although apparently the off-the-shelf DPMS 6.5 barrels are not bad either. I was attracted by good factory ammo, excellent selection of hunting bullets, and decent barrel life. I toyed with the idea of the 6XC or 6 CM but felt that I just did not need that last umpteenth of performance. YMMV in this respect. +1 on the quality optics being top priority.

I like to mix it with ATF. I have used 0/20 and 5/30, but I'm sure 5/40 would work fine too. Mix at whatever ratio you would like, many seem to use between 25/75 and 50/50. I have been intrigued by FireClean, but don't feel like going through the prep process that it apparently needs.