Aloha Robert

For preignition flinch vs post ignition recoil management I agree with most of above. But there is another very common cause of low hits which is assoicated with tension. Most teaching is done to hold or grip the gun tightly which will just about guarantee a begginer low shots. The reason is hardwired physiolgical response. If you tense you strong hand to get a grip, then tell someone to pull a service pistol trigger somewhere in the neighborhood of 5# or so and you automatically get ulnar deviation of wrist. Complex reason but basically the hand wants to stay balanced with grip and very hard for novice to increase finger flexion of single digit (the trigger finger} with out the other fingers refexively flexing as well ergo, the pulled downward shot. The solution to this is highly controversial, and the controvery begins with the grip itself. Classic old school, combat grip, thumbs forward or whatever you want to call it, naturally encourages very high tension therefor the comment about many top shooters have very strong forearms. But is almsot impossible for novice to put high flexion tension on digit 1,3,4 and 5 and make 2 (index finger loose), and then tell him to pull trigger without further increasing tension in remaining digits. It is not naturally physicologic and must be learned, and difficult because those same muscles share nerve impulses generated by nerve plexus in arm. The other muscles go off and result is radial deviation and low shot. The other side of the controversy begins with a very loose grip with non dominant hand doing most of stabilization. It utilizes the left thumb and index to manage most of recoil. Then the dominant hand is loose and free and can make precise rapid trigger control easily without squeezing further with other fingers, thus avoiding the low shot. It easier in Open than limited because of aids you are allowed to use, but there are ways to apply the techniques without illegal aides. BTW I LOVE "Smooth is fast" That was Jerry Barnhart's Mantra and arguably he was one of best shooters in world at his time, or maybe any time. Besides it's VERY zen and satisfying to be graceful with pistol in it's own right, even if you dont have a smoking run.

I agree with all the folks posts. If those dont work here is something to think about. I think it's one of those instinctual things that you automatically are hard wired to do and some get passed it easier than others. To reprogram your brain for differeant reaction, try linking the positive behavior to some other thing you know. For example try linking it with another fundamental. As Brian always says watch the front sight. In this example instead of trying to not blink, try to watch the sight AND describe the motion you saw. eg is it up and down or slightly to right and back down? It doesnt matter what the motion is, just focus enough attention on describing and seeing the motion in your "mind's eye". You will gradually realize you can't do that if you blink. So the drill might be shoot some shots and maximize your visual attention and focus on describing where the sight goes. Dont pay a lot of attention to other stuff (at the time of the drill). Somewhere way in back of your mind hardly up to conscious level is the goal of "not blinking".(If you can try the drill with a dot its easier, but iron sights works too with a little extra attention) That might work for some folks. But I think the best advice is dont worry about it much

Ah, Diehli has an excellent question, which is more complex than it first appears. Assertion of Original Genuine: Easy for objective evidence on that. Although I have been specifically instructed by moderators not to mention the name of manufacturer "*thumb rest [generic]*" or post a link. The USPTO (US Patent and Trademark Office) has a searchable database which shows who the owner of trademark is. For the non legal folks, in order to get a Trademark, you have to proove and submit evidence that you were first. Ergo, the assertion has been legally proved. Performance: Harder to proove that one. Let's put it this way, it will work better for most but not all shooters. About the "objective" evidence, all I can say is that every shooter who has used one is amazed at the increase in performance. I doubt any words I could say would be "evidence". What I suggest is this. Shoot a practice course of fire as fast as possible and find your own personal limit of performance (With Timer). Then use the *thumb rest [generic]*, you will find the timer will show improvement and timers dont lie. That's the evidence for you. That opinion is based on 15 years of observing shooters who have used the real "*thumb rest [generic]*" That being said, if you are one of the shooters that insist on resting rather than using your thumb, the performance of the real "*thumb rest [generic]*" will not be dramatically different from the foreign thumrests. It will however do a better job of the other problems mentioned such as the steering issue.

The original trademarked *thumb rest [generic]* solves all those problems you mentioned. It's very interesting to note "best open I've ever shot with it...." You have independently discoved what the secret of the orginal is, get your thumb where it will do some good and shoot faster. That means farther back near the slide stop. Unfortuneately most "thumb rests" dont do that. As far as "messed up" the rest of your grip. You will find that although it feels "messed up" at first it is actually much faster after you get used to it and the *thumb rest [generic]* will just about guarantee a perfect grip everytime. Stick with the new position . It takes about 2 practice sessions and timer to get comfy with the new position and see results. You wont want to go back because the timer dont lie. Thanks for the PM, I'll watch your website for details. Alan Hi Alan, You can use our thumb rest assembled onto a scope mount. sure, why not? I use it that way too on a CR mount. We also designed a mount for the Cmore which has an integrated adjustable thumb rest in it - look up our 3-in-1 scope mount on our site. the thumb rests can also be ordered from ceddaa.com which is US based and shipped by CED. hope this helps saul Back to the original thread which has to do with where to mount it for maximum effect. Alan discoved that putting the leverage point farther back works better. That's something the original "*thumb rest [generic]*" does extremely well. The foreign ones dont. Other posters have talked about the disadvantage of steering with your left thumb, which is still a problem with foreign thumbrests. The original *thumb rest [generic]* does not have that problem, and in fact solves it.

Tim Egan is a great guy and puts on the best match you can immagine, so no surprising no complaints. I was there and it was a fabulous terrific match. BUT I just got some inside info that shows Tim is truly a Diplomatic and very smart guy. He figured out the proverbial way have your polish cake and eat it too! In what I consider a stroke of genius, for the upcoming Area 1 he figured out a way for all classes of shooters to enjoy the prop. Either spin or no spin. With no spin the shooter would have to retreat to add a little time. It is such a great solution. I salute Tim and retract my opinion of Schadenfreude because Tim converted it into Polish Sweet Cake. And thanks for the wake up from Hopalong as well, great to know can happen with good works.

Just to be clear - I'm not talking about this one http://www.doublealpha.biz/gun-accessories/thumb-rests/crspeed-gas-pedal I *am* talking about this one, totally different animal http://www.doublealpha.biz/gun-accessories/thumb-rests/daa-adjustable-thumb-rest Alan Alan correctly pasted links HOWEVER, the links were to foreign (non USA) websites. Neither of those two products are the original USA designed, developed and manufactured in USA. And Trademarks dont count in International commerce unless you spend really big bucks to secure them. So RHT is still using the trademark owned by the USA company Internationally although they didnt design the *thumb rest [generic]* and dont have use of the Trademark in the USA. It's very confusing. But if you want the original, first, genuine, made in USA "*thumb rest [generic]*" neither of those links are it. If what Alan wants is to get his Thumb further back, which is a concept I firmly believe in, the foreign thumb rests are not designed to accomplish that mission well.

This information is partially incorrect. As Foxbat called it the "CR speed RHT *thumb rest [generic]*" is NOT the orginal *thumb rest [generic]* and they likely unknowingly infringed on the trademark "*thumb rest [generic]*". RHT has since discontinued using the name *thumb rest [generic]*. The Genuine trademarked "*thumb rest [generic]*" is very different in design from the CR (RHT) design. Foxbat has two things right. If the *thumb rest [generic]* or whatever brand you use is properly mounted for maximum effect you do have to remove it to field strip the slide release. (Takes about 30 seconds). Also Foxbat is correct many Thumbrests\Gas Pedals have ways to use existing Cmore mounting holes but the optimum solution is extra holes (2) to mount independently of scope so you can easily remove and keep true zero.

I appologize to Steve if he thinks I misquoted him. It is predicatable only to the extent if is set up perfectly and if maintained perfectly and if wind is absent and if you shoot in correct order and if the weights act as they are supposed to and if, if, if. Any student of physics will tell you after a certain number of unpredictable variables (usually three or more, but depending on the system) behavior is unpredicatable and the result is what is called emergent property. So for most shooters in most situations it will be unpredictable. For good shooters like Steve who can practice on it, it is a fun challenge. But the majority of shooters will find it a frustrating prop and not a fun part of the match However I think John Amidon's comment really sums it up,"it's sicker". Ergo, my conclussion Schadenfreude

The original trademarked *thumb rest [generic]* solves all those problems you mentioned. It's very interesting to note "best open I've ever shot with it...." You have independently discoved what the secret of the orginal is, get your thumb where it will do some good and shoot faster. That means farther back near the slide stop. Unfortuneately most "thumb rests" dont do that. As far as "messed up" the rest of your grip. You will find that although it feels "messed up" at first it is actually much faster after you get used to it and the *thumb rest [generic]* will just about guarantee a perfect grip everytime. Stick with the new position . It takes about 2 practice sessions and timer to get comfy with the new position and see results. You wont want to go back because the timer dont lie.

+1 for WG. I am over 60 and switching from 5" to 6" made a HUGE difference especially with accuracy shots. If you get a custom guy to build it right, it can actually be lighter and swing easier than a lot of the 5 " guns out there. If you are over 40 and shoot USPSA to me its a no brainer, the longer gun is better for you.

Schadenfreude

Glad Steve agrees it's unpredictable which more or less defacto violates the intent of the sport which is COF presents same challenge to every competitor

There absolutely nothing remotely practical about a moving unpredicatable plate. Ever seen anything remotely resembling a moving plate shoot back at you? Metal targets were put in USPSA to make sure folks kept their power factor legit and to test accuracy, not to be gotchas. And the point is they DO create range failures that are hard to judge. I would love to hear from someone in the USPSA rules hierarchy comment on their legality. Rules seem prety clear they are not mentioned as legal so someone must have made a dispensation about it. It is precisely the attachment that is not mentioned in the rules as legal and the attachment is one of the unreliable failure points. The attachment is via a spring. And we all know how springs have problems with use, corrosion, setting, centrifugal force, sagging, harmonics, etc. etc. Metal targets were not peviously thought to be a test of spring reliability Here is another question. How does the RO tell on a moving target decide in real time whether a plate has been hit or not other than falling off? So if you have partial or edge hit, no way to detect range failure until stage is over and IF the shooter left it there. If a plate is not hit exactly right it may not fall out. With conventional plate no problem. If the plate moves but does not fall off, its range failure, RO calls stop and that's it. My opinion is they are definitely fun for practice but have no place in USPSA competition. USPSA principles are clear, the same shooting challenge should be presented to all competitors. And further if you make a target difficult to maintain, set up, and score it a just plain Headache.

I have seen them twice at big matches now. I was very lucky and cleared it acceptably fast so I am not whining about myself but I HATE those kind of props. I saw even excellent shooters have a bad time with them because the sometimes very rapid swing is unpredictable. There is a sliding weight in back that makes it even screwier. And it depends on where on the plate your bullet hits. And there were quite a few range failures due to that prop that really backed up the squads. And it does not behave the same with all PF either. I saw excellent center hits on plates from those shooting minor and the plate might or might not come off or worse goes partially askew. And how in the heck do you calibrate them? Or add some wind and you are also screwed. I think it is a very bad prop because 1) It violates the prinicipal of USPSA that the course should present the same challenge for every shooter. If a prop is unpredicatable, is it the same challenge for every shooter? 2) You can have a great match and get totally reamed by a bad behavior (thru no predictable fault of your own) by one prop. 3) There are plenty of other ways to test accuracy or moving targets. Now I see folks are putting hard cover in front of part of rotation making it even worse. To me it's just one of those "gotcha" props that dont belong in USPSA. Actually I'm surprised they are even considered legal as rules (4.3.4) says metal targets must be as described in Appendix B5 and those in B5 are nothing like the attachments on Texas Stars or Polish Plate racks

Another discussion altogether is right, we could discuss loads forever. But for newer shooters remember any "pressure" specs you get are VERY approximate. Really the pressure is not static but a (very)fast function of time. It is the spikes of pressure that cause failure. And most guys that have been arround .40 long enough will tell you it is VERY easy to overpressure a .40 case (in USPSA). Back to original thread, I bought one of the original "Edge" .40 pistols from STI back in 90's and it did need a lot of work before right but it is still going strong now and has had tons of rounds. I think anybody who gets a competition gun "out of the box" or even from great gunsmith usually will have a lot of work to do before it is "just right" for prime time.

Been shooting .40 long time, these are my conclussions. On, OAL some guns definitely prefer longer OAL especially with semi wad cutter or truncated bullets. I load mine 1.240 Longer OAL definitely helps with pressure managment. There are many stories of case head seperation and cracked cases with shorter OAL. The problem with fast burning powders and short OAL is quick pressure spike. But for 40 you need a quick burning powder that is fully burned by time it exits barrel or you get rocket effect which increases recoil, ergo need for a fast burning powder. This favors larger case capacity as in 10mm or .40 loaded long. You will get some but not as much as you think more PF from 6" rather than 5" gun and additional boost from slippery bullets like precission black bullets. Jacketed bullets need most powder You will get a lot of highly opinionated recommended loads. Those that want a snappier feeling gun go for lighter bullets, those that want a softer feeling recoil will go with heavier bullet and faster burning ( but less volume )powder like N320. More case volume defitely helps in term of less case head seperation and less tendency to primer flow with heavier bullets. You get also lots of opinions on whether or not to have slide lock back. Many of top shooters dont. I like it because in Hawaii we get lots of ten round gotcha courses and to me a dry reload with slide locked back is way faster than click (no boom) be surprised, reload, rack and reaquire. Getting an STI/SVI to reliably hold back is pain in behind because manufacturers have not standarized mag wells, mags, mag catches, and slide stops. Add the variable of springs and followers and you got a mish mash Headache that make you want to shoot production. If you load long make SURE you get extra freebore in barrel or you may have jams.

Is Gavino's club still active there? Randy Gavino, has moved back to his native Phillipine Islands where he has begun construction on his own range and club. But Randy's Hawaii club, the Rhat Rhat Boyz still goes on without him and has small kick but* matches. Rhat Rhat is a small club but the guys who put on the matches work really hard to put on great matches with limited resources. The biggest club is MPPL Mid Pacific Pistol Shooters which has been arround for ever. They do a great job too. And we maybe have another club starting too. Oahu (where Honolulu is) has no place to legally practice but we got lots of club matches. Maui and Hawaii (another Island) have their own small clubs but have some really excellent shooters. So if you see a Hawaii shooter at a mainland match, they learned just about everything OJT not practicing. How many of you mainland guys would go to a big match having never practiced and never had a chance to try out their mags? But that's what Hawaii guys do.

Using muzzle against props is done all the time at Big Matches and I have never seen anyone DQ'd for it. Also guys will use muzzle against a solid wall prop to stop momentum of them going forward, also very legal and effective. (Works real well when you have to run forward and open door with weak hand, then use strong hand gun muzzle to stop momemntum while opening door.) If course desingner does not want you to use muzzle to open port, then they should use some other activating device like a rope, vertically sliding louvre or platform activation. Although I suppose someone could prohibit it in stage briefing, as a general rule it is not considered good form to restrict shooters actions by briefing words rather than props or rules. (Of course there are exceptions to almost everything especially at club level matches where prop resources tend to be more limited). More or less if it is not in rule book or briefing it is legal. If it's not in rule book and you restrict something with briefing, the exact penalty should be described in briefing.

Now I am really confused. I thought for GM it was 95% of the highest human performance possible, not upper 5% of shooters. What I think I am getting at is more folks are acheiving maximum human performance, at least in absolute numbers anyway. I am not sure if the absolute number is increasing but from my limited perspective seems to. I bet Rob B. could figure out something out his database if worth the effort. Possibly too arcane for time investment. Another thought, which does not apply in reality since guys cannot get downgraded unless something unusal happens, BUT if guys are always geting better would that mean there should be fewer upper class shooters(in abosolute numbers). For example someone is 95% GM but highest hit factor on classifier increases over time and he is now 94% would that means a smaller absolute number of relative human performance are actually shooting to newest limits of human performance? I absolutely repsect any acomplishment new or old, my only question is whether there really are a lot more really good guys than there were before? I think maybe yes.

This is all great info and congrats to those who have made the grade (any grade). This is current info. Is my memory bad or does anybody have info from say 15 years ago? My recollection is that GM's were few and far between. Now there is over a 100 of them not to mention the M's. Makes me wonder if my recollection is correct, what is getting better, equipment, maybe practice techniques. I doubt the gene pool of physical skills and gifts have changed. Any thoughts guys?

BATTERY SECRET or trouble? I agree with the posters that module can fade over time. But here is battery set up I use, maybe the CMore folks might think it is bad idea. Instead of One Duracell 1/3N, I use two Maxell SR44SW batteries. Reason is with single battery you get exactly 3.0 volts. With the Silver oxide you get two times 1.55 volts equal 3.1 volt to start with. They fit perfect. The Silver Oxide has supposedly better energy retention but I dont know if true. The only time I ever replace batteries is when I forget to turn off the dot(which as I get more white hair happens more frequently). Dont know how long it would last otherwise. My conclussion, battery life is an age related thing, not related to age of battery but to age of shooter.

If the bullet hit within 10 feet its call "AD" and DQ. (10.4.2) If gun goes off during reload it's "called" "unsafe gunhandling" and also DQ but different rule section may be cited. (10.5.9) or (10.4.3) Main distinction which they teach in RO school is to make sure right rule is cited by RO or concievably shooter may have grounds for appeal. And you can have both "AD" and "unsafe gun handling" at the same time which probably happened in this instance but you need to cite the correct rule section for the event(s). Whether or not finger was in trigger guard during reload is another subject and also grounds for DQ, unsafe gunhandling. In practice most (nice) RO's will yell "finger" as warning and if offense is repeated then DQ under unsafe gun handling but also they can DQ you without warning and be perfectly correct even if gun does not go off. (10.5.9) In a nutshell section 10.4 describes DQ for AD and section 10.5 describes DQ for unsafe gun handling and yes there is some confusing overlap. To directly answer the question I dont believe there is such a term as "premature discharge" in the rule book. But "Accidental Discharge" is precisely defined in section 10.4 Basically it's one of those arcane and archaic uses of language that confuses us.

About riffle comps/brakes. A properly designed comp should have negligible effect on velocity or accuracy. About the length of barrel. Longer barrels (in general but not always) give better velocity. But some comps work as well or better with a shorter barrel. You may need heat to remove your old flash hider (if it was put on with loctite} but many well desinged comps do NOT need loctite to stay on, Some will use a crush washer that works just fine, so when you put it back on it is easy to change comps. My opinion is there are brakes better than the ones you mentioned. Comps/brakes are the cheapest fastest way to reduce recoil and change the characterisics of you rifle. Others have mentioned excellent methods of improvement but just putting on the brake is the easiest and most "bang for your buck". A good AR brake will make your rifle feel like a .22

I thank all who have voiced their opinions and those who have taken the time to PM me on some info known to those with the most experience. Although, I am still open minded, based on the forum posts and the PMs, I think probably although the shorter barrel shotguns have some real advantages, they are not enough to overcome the disadvantages in 3 gun. The message I am getting is the type of shots usually encountered favor longer barrels for accuracy and distance trumps any advantage in closer quarters which are not often used in stage design. I like Larry's message and probably sums it up best and saying essentially the proof is in the proverbial pudding,. All that being said, it's still fun to whip arround guns that are lighter and sportier, and possibly less recoil, but fun style does not equate to winning matches. And who knows what style of course will look like in 10 or 20 years from now? Pistol course have changed a lot over time, so maybe Shotgun will too. Perhaps we should revisit this in 2020? Aloha to all who have helped discuss this

I am a little late to party, but I have had a similar experience in 40 but not .38. The bullet head it self was slightly mishapped. I think the clue in your case is if you force it into battery you get (what I am assuming, perhaps wrongly )rifleing marks on the bullet head. If that's what they are,that should never happen. So I think possibly your barrel has too little freebore (the transition zone from where chamber ends and riffleing begins). Increasing freebore will make all IPSC types pistols more reliable in any event and make them more amo friendly for the odd round. Off course I am assuming you checked your bullet seating die, because the odd piece of debris can definitely cause a head to seat assymetrically. The debris then becomes dislodged later and all subsequent bullets seat normally. Part of mystery is when chamber check (even with the barrel) you check with axis of bullet aligned with case gauge or chamber itself, but when feeding it comes in comes in from angle so if you have a mishaped or incorrectly seated bullet it will stubornly lodge at top of barrel near hood. And if you really want to be super duper sure you have to check each round in multiple rotations from the angle of feed. I dont go that far any more....but once upon a time..... But I tend to agree with Larry, If its only one round, toss it and forget it.