Aloha Robert

Pat, thanks for the tips. Always nice to get free advice from the experts. Kudos to Pat for being extremely observant of the fine points of the photos. He is right with his observations but our conclusions differ. First on the thumbs forward position, I know that is not correct and would not try and be an example in that mode, I only put it to show the wrist position in ulnar deviation. And Pat is very observant in thinking the hand comes away from the grip but in fact does not and has very solid contact, . Please ignore the Pinky as I have a build up on the magwell (another different story)and it has nothing to do with the point, but I knew someone with expertise would spot it. Pat is also observant on the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method picture except as above the support hand in fact excellent contact with the rest of the grip. Also one of the beauties of the *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip is that it works very well with almost any thumb position (as long as the *thumb rest [generic]* ® part is mounted in correct positon) and the way it is shaped your thumb finds the right spot automatically. So I would respectfully disagree that the thumb is not in correct position, for that particular shooters hand. Also the idea that it causes steering is a commonly held misconception that I think got some traction with thumb rests that does not use the *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip or method. Steering simply is NOT a real issue with the real *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip. Steering can certainly be problem with other Thumb Rests if you try to use them with classic grip method. I think any grip method no matter what you use will initially not track perfectly until as BE says turn up your visual attention and balance things out. Like so many things in life, balance may be achieved in many ways.

Scap's comment cracks me up! I love it when I hear stuff like that. Off course I don't know what Scaps injury is and I would not encourage him to do anything that he or his Dr. feels is inappropriate, nor in any way make light of his conditon. The reason it tickles me so much is that arthritis in my left thumb from a old skiing injury plagued me early as a shooter. The *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip was an early “experiment” of mine to be able to shoot Open back in the days when PF was 175 and Rob led us all the hallowed land of 9 X 25. Those guns kicked but the *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip allowed me to control recoil and flip with a bum thumb. ( I had a great comp too but the "dot" did not move much.) So I figured if I could do it with an impaired thumb, what could a good shooter do with it? Bottom line, the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method works with very little of the thumbs potential strength.

Torogi has a great question. First the usual suspects of all the things that cause shots to go left or right should be addressed. The answer to all as BE has taught us is observation and attention. What is the dot really doing? Then you should be able to pay enough visual attention to the dot and your own physical proprioception from grip to see where the dot is going, and feel what is happening. That being said, thank you for identifying the part as the incorrectly named *thumb rest [generic]* by RHT. The RHT is a very fine product but because it is difficult to mount it far enough back, one gets a hybrid technique between classical neutral and the *thumb rest [generic]* ® method. Every shooter is different. However the thumbing or steering problem I have heard frequently when someone incorrectly assumed a grip somewhere in between which the more forward grip encourages. Steering is not usually an issue with a correctly mounted *thumb rest [generic]* ® grip.

Sherpa, thanks for asking for links. However the links I know of are commercial and that would likely cross the line into promotion, so sorry no links. However we are talking about a technique, not a product so here is some info. The *thumb rest [generic]* ® Method has been shown from time to time in Front Sight. Also, here are some amateur pics of the difference in Grip techniques. Notice in the classic, or floating thumbs or neutral grip the wrist is cammed extremely forward (ular deviation of wrist). In the *thumb rest [generic]* ® Method the wrist is in “true neutral” allowing the grasping muscles of hand to work and natural rotation point of pistol (read fulcrum) is much higher (closer to bore axis).

NOT embarrassing at all, since only a small minority of shooters know about it and understand it. A very brief summary is that the *thumb rest [generic]*® Method uses the *thumb rest [generic]*® part to enable the non dominant hand to use All the hand and wrist muscles to get a solid grip with the natural opposable strength in the hand. This is in contrast to the neutral or floating thumbs method which requires significant pressure with both hands and yields the problem of trying to get a loose trigger finger on the dominant hand. This method uses significantly more mechanical advantage to enable recoil and flip control with less muscular effort. Some will wrongly confuse this with use of traditional thumb rest and a hybrid of the neutral grip. With the *thumb rest [generic]*® Method, the dominant hand is similar to the neutral grip but the non dominant hand is in “true neutral” (not camed forward) wrist position which allows the “grasping” muscles of the hand to do the work. (which don’t get used in the traditional neutral grip). The *thumb rest [generic]*® part allows the Thumb to get purchase to enhance mechanical advantage greatly.

+++s for R. Elliot, he says it all right there. Since original poster is looking for new ways, IMHO an easier way to get no tension (read very relaxed) in trigger finger is with *thumb rest [generic]*® method because of improved mechanical advantage of non dominant hand. You get benefits of reduced flip AND relaxed trigger finger, the best of both worlds.

Ok guys, I am putting on my anti flame suit but, IF you are considering a new grip style, dont forget to consider the *thumb rest [generic]* Method (not to be confused with customary Thumb Rest method). This method solves most of the the problems described in this thread. You get very little flip with very little perceived effort to resist flip. You dont have to worry about how much pressure, force, or timing of non dominant grip because you have SO much more leverage and the *thumb rest [generic]* puts your hand in an efficient mechanical position. (Also makes the draw tons easier, because you automatically get a perfect grip everytime.) One can easily obtain the goal of recoil and flip control with very little input from dominant hand which allows more precise trigger control. Also it negates a multitudes of sins for guns that for whatever reason (powder, comp, springs etc) flip a lot. No need to worry about hammers, nails, timing, squeezing or whatever; your hand and nervous system with *thumb rest [generic]* takes care of all those variables automatically.

All the standards will work... I used this: http://speedshooter.com/product_detail.cfm?ID=RHTGP That is not quite correct. Yes they will mount but will they help? It depends on the Scope mount and type of grip assist. The problem with the side mount is they are usually thick and mounted more forward. So you can use the "thumb rest" quoted above BUT it will put your "rested" thumb too far forward and too much laterally to do the most good. As I have said before to increase performance, the thumb assist should be mounted much farther back like a *thumb rest [generic]* than where the side mounts allow. You can use a *thumb rest [generic]* with a thick side mount but will likely need to mill a little off the mounting side (of the *thumb rest [generic]*, or the scope mount) to compensated for the thickness of the side mounts. What I have heard from most shooters with side mount, is they need to do something about the left thumb as unmodified, the wide scope mounts frequently get in the way of the left thumb whatever technique you use, unless you do something

Dave Sevigny runs no grip tape at all on his multi-national championship winning Glock 34. Neither do I on my own G34 (or my 17, or my 19, for that matter). Believe me, I've experimented extensively with grip tape, and finally discovered (1) it was causing me problems with my hand not being able to slide smoothly into place on the draw, (2) it just wasn't necessary to get the gun tracking consistently. ++s for Duane for figuring out what others have not, Whether it be a Race Gun with a *thumb rest [generic]*, a Limited STI or a production gun, the secret is NOT to rely on friction for control. Fit of Gun in Hand trumps all friction devices by a long shot. Duane has also figured out the less friction means faster draw and more consistent grip. If you have to use a lot of friction tape, your gun is probably not fitting right. (Or you insist on using old school, forced shoulder aduction and bilateral hand presure to controil recoil) That being said, if you are stuck with a pistol that doesnt give a great fit to YOUR own hand, then friction tape is a workaround less optimal solution.

Actually this is not quite correct or always true. I think this is one of the biggest myths in shooting. While the most common techniques employ friction, it is not necessary at all in some situations. And in fact requires strength and lots of practice. For example when using a properly fitted grip assist such as a *thumb rest [generic]*(in Open), you can have virtually no friction and maintain an excellent strong grip. And you need vitually no side to side pressure. You can get almost same effect using thumb over thumb technique in Limited. Believe it or not, I prep my grip with Tetra Oil to REDUCE friction so your hand slides quickly to the correct position. And yes I have a degree in Physics so I know about friction. If your hand is in right position you need almost no friction.

I dont know if there is a "best", BUT best thing you can do is try to put your own gun in holster before you buy. Some holsters dont work with some guns. For example some very good holsters will not accomadate some guns with some grip assists.

This whole New Specs things for STI and SVI is kind of driving me nuts. Seems like everyone has a different answer Even the pros. I kind of like the question why did they change in first place. At area one this year I talked Don Kemble, who is outside sales rep for STI, and ended up buying, on a whim, a new improved Alumininum Grip. I asked him if it would work with his new mags or my original STI mags. His answer was maybe. He proceeded tell story about three differnent shoters at STI who have same setup with new Grip and NewMags. I asked him if they all work and he said maybe. He said one mag will work in one gun but not the other. Others that dont work in one Gun will work in another. Don is such a great saleman and talker I did not wanted to get into a shaggy dog story. But if there are any magazine, mag catch mavens out there, I would love to hear their take on all this stuf. It is totally frustrating and especially for 10 rd guys that are changing mags all the time. That being said my SV mags on old gun work fine in open and Limited. The STI mags (with Dawson Tuning) seem to work well in a new Limited Gun but not so well in new Open Gun (different mags and calibers)

Using the base of the thumb is a controversial topic. You will get a lot of opinions on that. I kind of agree with G Man Bart that best results are with firm grip and ease off enough to get trigger control, but HOW you do that becomes controversial. The muscles at Base of Thumb are by far the strongest in the Hand and the most efficient at producing grip. However again how you do this is controversial. In Open class, the answer is easy, use a grip assist such as a *thumb rest [generic]*. That automatically puts your hand in best position for using your thumb so you can take advantage of those bigger muscles at base of hand. Makes your grip efficient without a lot of stress so trigger finger can work well. In Limited or Production, (in USPSA) it gets a little more complicated. My solution is on guns that have thumb safety or grip cut out for thumb (dominant), then use the non dominant thumb over dominant thumb technique which allows you to use those big thumb muscles. However, you will find that is a minority opinion. Those that do not favor thumb over thumb mention points like steering, tracking etc. Although I am in minority here, I have not experienced any of those problems. I think OP (Jay) is to be commended for proprioceptive body awareness figuring out there out to be some way of using those bigger more efficient muscles.

They had some for dispaly at Area One and I got chance to 'light/fire" one. It's a terrific trainer, The laser is really clear and easy to see unlike some other types can be hard to see or are allways on. Its one of best training devices I have seen (without ammo). Seems well built and roboust. Always that wonder in back of you mind will elecstronics will hold up but Mike Hughes who is head of compnay, mechanical engineer and pattent attorney says he is confident he can control quality. Sum it up, great trainer, self resetttin trigger and extremly accurate laser feedback. Looks like a winner. I think they have plans to introduce their systems in other platforms, different service pistol and an AR version. Look like another great tool for production shooters to get a LOT better.

As a sports medical physician who has 30 years of experience with making orthotics for athletes, I can only say that a well made orthotic for SOME people will make a HUGE difference, both in terms of correcting ailments as well as significantly increasing performance. Like faces there are a huge variation in foot anatomy. Some folks will do real well with an over the counter orthotic but some will require a custom made one. The most common ailments that SOMETIMES are fixed by orthotics are plantar faciitis, shin spints,excessive pronation and some types of knee problems. The odd back problem is also sometimes aided For those that have excessive pronation, a well fitted fairly rigid orthotics WILL inrease your launch speed and decrease setup time. The analogy I use is like a sports car with soft springs. It takes a while to load and unload the spring so if you stiffen up the suspension you can change direction quicker. Same thing happens with folks that have feet that pronate, it takes a few hundreths of second to load and unload. Plus your proprioceptive feedback is enhanced considerably with orthotics. That being said, unfortuneately my experience is there are a lot of folks making custom orthotics, that could do a better job. A regular podiatrist will not likely help much. One who treats a lot of athletes are sometimes good. The best semi professional results I have seen are guys who make ski boot inserts, as skiiers are much more demanding of perfect fit. Someone mentioned "Superfeet". I have seen some good ones and some not so good ones. Part of the problem is most of the relatively inexpensive "custom" orthotics are made during weight bearing which already has the foot in a distorted position. The best custom orthotics, although hard to find someone who knows how, is done with a cast made from foot in non weight bearing perfect position. There are also some newer computer aided pressure sensor design aids that can work well in experienced hands. The good news is there are a fairly large number of folks that will do real well with an off the shelf DIY orthotic. And just to be clear I dont want any business, I currently refuse to do them unless I have seen the patient before. They are time consuming to do right. I have already done thousands and figure that's enough.

I dont have a horse in this race, only trying to give shooters and developers benefit of 12 years of research for free. Not sure which brands are thick and which are not but have seen several that are thick and do extend back to interfere with thumb and have heard shooters complain about it as recently as last weekend at Area One. I am aware of the harmonics issue, having a degree in Physics once upon a time. Paradoxically thick is not always better as the "resonance frequency" depends on a lot of factors besides thickness. We did not encounter that problem. That being said, Whatever design you come up with will be better for most shooters if there is no interference with non dominant thumb. And as those that follow forum or have seen me at matches I am big believer in controlling recoil with non dominant thumb and hand. About the visual mass issue, JThompson is right about the focal distance for most shooters. However, there are a lot of folks brains and eyes work differently, and there will definitely be some folks where his reasoning does not apply and the mass is a distraction and prevents rapid aqusition. There are also some special situations that it is a factor for all shooters, such as a tight port, with multiple targets at extreme left field of fire. Another odd ball situation where it matters is shooting thru slats or bars. My opinion on this based on real world experience with the side mount and theoretical knowlege as Sports Medical Physician. But JThompson is right it will be a non issue for many shooters.

First this post is not promo for us because we don't sell this mount even though we made lots of prototypes. But we have worked on the concept for about 12 years. Based on our research this is advice to guys who are manufacturing and selling their stuff 1) Material does not need to be super thick as dot "bounce" due to flexion is not as much of an issue as when we started when PF was 175. 2) A thinner mount is desirable so you dont get the weak hand thumb hung up, a common complaint I have heard even recently at Area One match last week 3) If you feel you need thicker, put the thickness at front and make back thin to accomadate thumb or thumb assist device 4) Some guys will love it, epecially those that shoot a lot of limited but some guys wont because of the visual mass on side impedes side to side aquisition for some shooters. The pic does not show our mount well but is very old, the metal is thin and it has held up just fine.

THANKS to Aristotle for posting great vids AND he is way too modest, I personally saw him work his butt off as RO during match and did a heckuva job, we are lucky to have him. As the official match sponsor and also Sponsor of one of the controversial stages (Stage 7, Back to Batan) I have nothing but the highest praise for Tim Egan and his entire staff. Since I was Sponsor of stage Stage 7 (but had zero input into design or management) I paid a lot of attention to it. I believe they handled the problems superbly. The angles on the center targe were very deceptive and depended a lot on multiple dimensions so I can see how some might think Targets changed but I dont think they did. Even the top shooters were having trouble figuring out where to shoot it from. All in all, match was superb and well managed. Area One is lucky to have Guys like Tim Egan and Aristotle and a lot of other hard working folks too. Let's put it this way. I was a sponsor for Area one 2009 and 2010 and look forward to sponsoring again in 2011. That's how good a job I think they all did. And I am eager to hear from the Open shooters after they have a chance to try out new equipment, all the open shooters received.

Amen to that! I think both of the above are absolutely correct. But how to do it is somewhat of a can of worms and you will hear a lot of opinions on the HOW to execute it. My 2 cents is , If you are shooting in Open, this is tons easier to do and faster, if you have a *thumb rest [generic]* or properly fitted Thumb rest. It makes it a lot easier to control almost ALL of the recoil with weak hand so trigger hand can be loose as a goose and execute a proper trigger pull without moving sights while breaking the shot. I'll preface this by saying I use a thumb rest on my Open guns, but many people who know a lot about this think they actually weaken your support hand grip because they don't typically allow your hand to cam forward as much as without a rest. In the class I took with Manny Bragg he said the overwhelming majority of folks he sees with thumb rests are getting inconsistent dot tracking due to pushing on the rest. I don't think I actively push on it, but I might resist against it, and we didn't find my dot tracking worse with the rest. I'm working on grip strength and will try without a rest (again) later this year. I also don't believe the really good shooters have their strong hand loose as a goose. I think most have decent grip strength and use something like 75% of the available grip, which still lets them have a smooth trigger press. Look at pictures of most any top shooter (regardless of division) and the forearm muscles of their strong hand are clearly flexed from a fair amount of grip effort. Here's a pic of BJ Norris that's pretty clear. You can see he's cranking down hard with the support hand (red/white fingertips) and there's a lot of tension in his strong hand, with a reasonable amount of tension visible in his strong hand forearm: Dave S....also quite a bit of tension showing in the strong hand forearm: Those are great pics, and G Man is right, many of top shooters do have the proverbial blacksmith forearms that give them enough surplus strength to execute a physiologically inefficient method. However most shooters dont have all the extra strength to waste, nor do they need too. G Man is also right some type of thumb rests dont help and in fact hinder grip. The reason is they give you the worst of both worlds, no cam forward ability to control while simultaneously nullifying the potential advantage of controlling recoil using efficient position such as *thumb rest [generic]* or some Thumbrests mounted sufficiently back. If you "rest your thumb" you dont gain much of anything and can defeat the optimum position. I suspect Manny Bragg's comments about inconssitant dot tracking with pushing is due to the wrong equipment and conept on how to use it. The *thumb rest [generic]* solves that problem automatically and actually decreases dot movement and makes it more consistent and also solves the steering problem. If the Thumb rest is mounted too far forward as are most of the shooters guns I see, You can indeed get those problems. With a *thumb rest [generic]* or properly fitted Thumbrest you dont "push", instead, you grip with your thumb and opposing finger. Although at first it may feel like pushing, after short time you are not "pushing". you are "gripping". Thumb pressure does not conciously pulse during shots. It subconciously takes care of recoil on its own because the brain will learn thumb is met my equal and opposite resistance, so there is no concious "push" as that does lead to inconsistency. After a few mags you can learn the opposable force method and there is much less dot movement, and become very consistant. That being said, it is simply a physiologic fact you can have finer and faster motor control in a looser hand (or any other muscle really). The reason is the way the hand is neurologically wired and anatomically connected. In plain language, it extremely difficult to use high or max force with middle, ring, and pinky while simultaneously maintaining fine motor control with index finger because you cant keep the index (trigger) finger loose and fast while the others are in max flexion strength (griping). Another topic related but longer to describe, is that many top shooters use forced shoulder adduction to press on both side of gun at same time with the aim of reducing flip and/or getting more consistent front sight movement. This is the classic technique and requires lots of strength in both arms to push on both sides of pistol, but I think there are better ways.

This is one of those questions, you will get a zillion differant answers and opinions, so take mine with agrain of salt. My opinion as Sports Medical Physican is that the "cam forward" medically refered to as ulnar deviation is totally incorrect way controlling recoil. True it is gospel to most shooters however for the majority of shooters it is simply physiologically very ineffiecient requiring forearm like blacksmith to execute that particular technique and tons of practice. The reason is when you cam your wrist forward,(ulnar deviation), you loose about 70% of your grip strength. Yes most pistol instructors will tell you to do this, but after 30 years of sports medicine experience and 15 years of USPSA shooting, I believe there are far better ways.

Amen to that! I think both of the above are absolutely correct. But how to do it is somewhat of a can of worms and you will hear a lot of opinions on the HOW to execute it. My 2 cents is , If you are shooting in Open, this is tons easier to do and faster, if you have a *thumb rest [generic]* or properly fitted Thumb rest. It makes it a lot easier to control almost ALL of the recoil with weak hand so trigger hand can be loose as a goose and execute a proper trigger pull without moving sights while breaking the shot.

Area one update on Polish Plate Rack. Most of shooters have been thru the Polish Plate Rack and it is simply amazing! I met Farley, the designer and fabricator, and he a super great guy. They have perfected it and it shoots VERY reliably now. The shooters seem to enjoy the challenge especially since there were about four different ways to shoot it including static with retreat, partial static, a side box to get the top, and full spinning with activator with less movement. Truly brilliant stage design including many variables on the static targets. My hat is off to Farley and Tim Egan, Great job!

Today was first day of Area 1 (mostly RO', staff and Vip's) The Polish plate rate is awesome because Farley and Egan designed a course that gives you 3 different options, no spin with retreat, closest to targe with full spin, or hybrid with shooting top steady, bottom moving after hitting activator. Poor genius! Mr. and Mrs. Farley had already mounted the Original Trademarked *thumb rest [generic]* which were gifts to all Area one Open Shooters. They both said they shot if a lot faster than before and when they got to the paper their groups were much better. So I retract all previous negative comments I made about the Polish Plate Rack. It's awesome. Farley exlained my listening to all the complaints at the previous 2009 Area One match and range failures were due to incorrect setup which was fixed. I was in one of the few sqauds where the prop was set up incorrectly and after some shop work, worked as intended. But by that time we were backed up 2 hous on next steel stage, so all I hear for two hours were complaints. I think its one of those odd ball situations that likely wont cause grief again and was an anomoly. So I got a biased view from other shooters then. But this is now and the Polish Plate Rack is greatwhen set up properly as designed by the manufacturer. Farley is great guy, and I am a convert to Polish Plate Rack, and sounds like he is a convert to the real *thumb rest [generic]*. Life is full of wonderful surprises.

Schumann has been great for me. I really like the progressive twist one. Dot tracks better too.

Im dating my self, but Jerry Barnhart spent a LOT of time on this in his instructional videos from the 90's. In a nutshell, you should be able to do either depending on situation but the real pearl from Jerry is to coordinate the presentation of pistol with the setup. The presentation starts just before entering the box or whatever set up. The shot breaks as soon as the sights stabilize which should happen just about the time the second foot hits. This saves a lot of time and avoids the sight "bounce", sight dip or pogo stick as Flexmoney and others call it.Of course if its a hammer close shot, you can shoot as soon as the first foot hits. For special situations, the foot that is one closer to target, edge of box, or side of barricade should generally hit first. (although there are some gifted shooters where it just doesnt matter) After a while the presentation, setup and foot work is the same whether it's box or any other (static) setup. Using the same consistant technique, after a while it just becomes habbit and you dont have to think about it. But first think about coordinating the presentation, that's where the time savings occur, more than which foot hits first. Jake is right practice with timer and see.