SteveZ

Looks like Flex and I are on the same page. While someone popping a gun out of the holster (facing uprange) would make me really nervous as a RO....the rules seem to indicate that as long as they keep the muzzle in the 1meter safety bubble (like that term!)...they're within the rules. If I was sitting on an ARB panel and a shooter was DQ'ed for this and cited these points...I'd have to rule in favor of the shooter.

understood...but see my above post regarding the IPSC rule which, baring any tweaking from the USPSA, will become the USPSA rule...so 10.5.6 will eventually become: 10.5.6 Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point uprange beyond a radius of 1 meter (3.28 feet) from a competitor's feet during drawing or re-holstering. uprange is uprange whether he shooter is facing uprange or downrange....there is no "rearward" anymore. The point of all of this in regards to safety is that a shooter facing downrange who draws with this muzzle pointed within 1 meter behind him....is no more safe or less safe than a shooter facing uprange who points the muzzle within 1 meter infront of him. The action is the same in both instances....only the words are different.

...then whats going to change when the wording of 10.5.6 falls in alignment with IPSC rules ...which read: 10.5.6 Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point uprange beyond a radius of 1 meter (3.28 feet) from a competitor's feet during drawing or re-holstering. note the replacement of "rearward" with "uprange".

so you're saying that a competitor using a FBI cant holster facing downrange...will be DQ'ed when drawing their gun because the gun will be pointing 'rearward'? 10.5.6 says drawing and re-holstering...not holstering AND it says rearward BEYOND 1 meter. Seems to me the shooter as a "grace zone" of 1 meter about them on the draw.

I'm not sure how the wording in the WSB would change the "safety" of the act. "On signal, turn and then draw and engage" vs "On signal, draw and engage" is at the most a procedural error for not following the stage procedure. Either the act is safe or it's not ...in which case it would be a DQ. Ok...then for the sake of discussion. Lets suppose two different shooters. One has an "FBI cant" holster and the other has a race holster (pointed slightly forward). On a "facing downrange" start, the FBI cant shooter has a 2 second draw. He draws his gun (gun is in his hand) and for a period of 1 second, the muzzle of the gun is pointed uprange (behind the shooter) breaking the 180 but pointed at the ground lets day 1 foot behind the shooter (less than 1 meter from the shooter but is allowed per 10.5.6???) and then comes forward crossing the 180 line. The race gun shooter does a "facing uprange" start...he also has a 2 second draw. At the start signal, he draws his gun (gun is in his hand) facing uprange and begins to turn....for a period of 1 second, the muzzle of the gun is pointed uprange 1 foot from the shooter and then the gun crosses the 180 line as the shooter continues to rotate toward the first target. In both cases the gun is pointed 1 foot uprange from the shooter for a period of one second....neither is more or less safe then the other. Why would the first shooter not be DQ'ed where the second shooter would?

Ok....but is 10.5.6 an exception to 10.5.2? 10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the firearm is loaded or not. 10.5.6 Allowing the muzzle of a loaded handgun to point rearward beyond a radius of 1 meter (3.28 feet) from a competitor’s feet during drawing or re-holstering.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on this one. I've got some thoughts on my own but would like to hear others ideas if they were RO'ing and a competitor did the following: If at the start signal, a competitor (while facing uprange) draws...keeps the muzzle of their firearm pointed within 1 meter and THEN turns, are they DQ'ed under 10.5.2 or is 10.5.6 an exception to 10.5.2 during the draw/holster process (even if the shooter is facing uprange when they draw)?

According to the rules gurus over in IPSC-land, magazines and speedloaders fall under 'all allied equipment', and therefore can't be pre-placed off-body unless the stage or RO requires it. ....and I've heard it interpreted many times that 5.2.3 deals with the belt and where its placed....not the presense of the magazines or gun on the belt...futhermore IF it was true...then it would be in direct conflict with 5.2.4 which states "should"....and as we all know.....its perfectly legal to use magazines drawn from your pockets. If you want to write and tell John...he's all wet...go right ahead! BTW, I brought this entire discussion (about magazines and there placement at the start signal) up to Bruce Gary sometime back when he was working on the revision to the rule book....Bruce said he'd address it and close the loophole.

I don't know if I would call it a ruling .... but more of an interpretation/reading of the rule book. This entire discussion stemmed from the lack of a definition in the rule book regarding where ammo reloading devices had to be at the start signal. I keep all my correspondance with John...here's how the last email played out. JA: Usually, the ammo on table is in an empty gun start, but does not have to be. SZ: Yeah, I've shot stages like that. So if I'm reading your response correct, I can "stage" a magazine somewhere on a stage, and use that magazine during the course of fire, even if the course description does not otherwise specify where my mags have to be? JA: I would recommend that you ask prior to doing it, the RO may or may not allow you this privilege, he has a responsibility to give everyone the same opportunity, and if others have gone through and not done this, then it is a good possibility that it would not be allowed as it would change the stage. I talked with one of our more experienced and highly respected RM's about this last statement made by John as John implies that you should ask the RO for permission. I don't believe you have to ask the RO for permission for something that isn't prohibited in the rule book or stage briefing. The RO's aren't allowed to selectively start enforcing what they believe is intent (in my opinion). The RM (who shall rename nameless...unless he wants to identify himself) responded to that as follows: RM: The answer is, yes - the RO could prohibit a shooter from doing this, AS LONG AS IT'S APPLIED CONSISTENTLY TO EVERY SHOOTER. Even if you HAVE dedicated CRO's - they get tired - and, if it's been omitted in the walkie, you're right back to where you started. This is the sort of thing that gets stages tossed... I'm a proponent of leaving very little leeway for the RO's to "clarify" or "interpret" the rules, especially - again - in light of the increasing preponderance of "roving" RO's. So, short version... close the loophole in the upcoming rewrite.

I had a long discussion with John A about BOTH of these issues. According to JA, the stage procedure MUST state that either the gun has to be laying flat..or you can't prop it up,etc. It it doesn't...you can. Furthermore regarding magazines...according to John, unless the WSB prevents it, you can place your magazines anywhere you want and use them. As an example...if you wanted, you could place them at strategically located places along the COF for reloads...I don't know why anyone would want to do this...but you could....unless the WSB stated "all reloading devices must start on the shooters person".

You don't like Pink Floyd...whats wrong with you? That Jack-in-the-Box stage (or more appropriately Sharyn-in-the-Box) was a hoot!

I used to think this way too...but its wrong. There are actually three states; 1) in the box, 2) not in the box and the last one 3) not in or out of the box. Now before you think I'm from some other time continuum space warp. Let me explain using an example. You've got a Box A and an area outside the box (we'll call that Area 'B'). If you have both feet in Box A, you are in Box A. If you have both feet outside of Box A, you are outside Box A and IN Area 'B'. If you have one foot in Box A and one foot in Area B, you are faulting Box A AND Area 'B' at the same time...hence you are neither in Box A or out of Box A (also it follows, you are neither in Area 'B' or out of Area 'B'). Amidon addressed in Front Sight a couple years ago. oops...nevermind the above...you already caught that part about the "area" between the two boxes.

Hmmmm. Sidebar question...does anyone count rounds in competition shooting? I sure don't ... at least not consciously....but I wouldn't be surprised if my subconscious is keeping count. I shoot L10 ... and there have been times where my game plan has gone to crap...yet a round or two before I would go empty...I'll just "magically" pull off a reload...almost automatically without thinking about it...and I sure wasn't counting rounds up to that point.

+1 on the Rudy Project. I last year after scratching my Wylie-X glasses...I went and upgraded to the Rudy Project Freeon's....great glasses....and I've got three different lenses. After dumping a bunch of money on Lasik last year...I didn't feel too bad spending a bit more for quality glasses.

Again...this being a IPSC rule and not a USPSA rule...but we've already got something that says this: 4.2.4.4 Hard cover must not completely obscure the highest scoring zone on a partially hidden paper target. If you've got a paper target with hard cover based on 4.2.4.3 (By painting or taping the portion of the target deemed to be hidden by hard cover a single and visibly contrasting color) then some part of the A-zone has to remain visible. If you comply with 4.2.4.4...then "whole paper targets must not be used solely as hard cover " is already covered (to use a bad pun!)

We wanted to get a picture of Tom in the shackles with the rest of this squad surrounding him...but he wouldn't go for it. this is as close as we got:

Tom would like the same "deal" he got for the 2004 Area 1 Championship in Reno....heck...we'd all like that deal!

I wonder if there might be some negative side effects from this "quest". Sauls new book warns about the effects of practicing bad habits...mainly not getting good hits on targets. His point being that if you allow your subconscious to accept any hit...thats what it will eventually provide....any hit rather than A-zone hits. While Steve/Jake are accepting any hit on the target...I wonder if this "acceptance" of non A-Zone hits will eventually cross over into their everyday shooting. According to Saul...it does.

I tried to grab as much 45ACP brass as I could off of my stage...and left all the rest. After running what seemed like "miles" each day while working that stage...I didn't have alot of energy left at the end of the day to get too picky about what brass I was going to fetch. It doesn't surprise me that you found a bunch of brass....the ground behind the walls was nearly covered with it!

???????????? What upside down targets???????????????/ T1 on both stages 10 and 12 are right side up. Nevermind! I don't know how I "saw" heads on those!

Looks like the STAGES have been posted. Upside down (2.1.8.4) targets on stages 10 and 12? And they're bringing back the "dummy" from Marysville 2001 on stage 10!

regarding the part about "handedness" in classifiers AND standards(and for that matter...shooting positions or stance). When I took my CRO course with none other than JA, John told me that handedness (shooting positions or stance too) can ONLY be used in Standard exercises and if a future classifier had a handedness (shooting position or stance too) requirement...it MUST be a Standard Exercise. He told me the wording of Standard Exercise AND classifier was put in to grandfather current classifiers that were technically illegal. Here are JA's exact words: "The reason that the rule states "and classifiers", was due to the classifiers that existed when the rules changed, those that were not 100% in line with the changes were grandfathered by the "and Classifiers", future classifiers presented, must follow the rules, which means, that if someone today submitted a classifier that specified a shooting position or stance, or strong or weak hand, it would have to be scored VC and have more than one string, and must follow the 24 rounds total, six rounds per string unless a reload was involved then it could be 12. John" So now it should be obvious whats wrong with Six Chickens. Say good bye to Six Chickens the next classifier go around. Edited to add the part about shooting positions or stance...which are Standard Exercise issues ONLY.

I'm with Troy on this one. If the COF said: Upon start signal, from Box A, engage only PP1, PP2, T1, and T2 from left side of barricade, make a mandatory reload, THEN from Box A, engage only PP3, PP4, T3, and T4 from the right side of barricade. it would be a different matter. THEN implies order...AND implies inclusion/addition. JA even addressed something similar prior to 03-01 Ducks In A Barrel getting tossed out. He basically stated "THEN" implied order of engagement (there by stopping people from playing games regarding the order of engagement of the steel and paper targets). I guess it just get down to....just because he's JA...doesn't make him right! However he is most of the time....just not this time!

Ok...I'll do it without looking at the rule book. A Standard Exercise is 1) any COF that has multiple timed strings. 2) No more than 6 rounds per string (12 if a mandatory reload is required) 3) no more than 24 rounds to complete 4) any stage that requires "handedness" 5) any course that requires a shooting position (e.g. prone, kneeling, etc). I think that pretty much covers it. EDIT: For 10 bonus points....lets see if someone can tell me whats wrong with the classifier "6 chickens". Double Edit: I forgot to add the Virginia Count part...I'm such a failure!

Yeah..they're procedurals. Here's the actual rule from the 15th edition: 10.2.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at any scoring target with at least one round will incur 1 procedural penalty per target, plus the applicable number of misses, except where the provisions of Rules 9.2.4.5 or 9.9.2 apply.