SteveZ

Can't the RM just declare 'reshoot' without doing the calibration shot, if they think the popper set is truly bad.. as in the old 'rock in the mechanism' example that was around for years? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think in Gary's example...the RM was called to the stage simply to re-cal the popper. As Gary pointed out earlier, once the RO stops the shooter (because of the suspected problem with the popper)...the RO bought the stage...and the shooter is getting a reshoot regardless.

Only if the highest scoring area was visible on the target from somewhere withing the legal firing area after the target came to rest. If you couldn't see some part of the A-Zone from somewhere no the stage where you could have engaged it (even after it came to rest)....then no procedurals. 9.9.1 Moving targets which present at least a portion of the highest scoring area when at rest, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties (exception see Rule 9.2.4.5). Sounds like you got screwed

You're correct Tom....US4.3.1.5 (oh how I remember that number from Area 1 stage 3) addresses metal targets which turn on edge or sideways (I've yet to see a pepper popper turn on edge or sideways...so it must be about a metal plate) or (and here's the part I remember oh so well...) fall due to a shot on the support apparatus are grounds for an automatic reshoot. US4.3.1.6 specifically addresses metal plates (which can't be calibrated)...if the metal plate is hit but does not fall .... and the RO sees it, the RO should stop the shooter and issue a reshoot. If the RO doesn't see it....then according to my favorite RM...."it didn't happen". BTW...I think US4.3.1.5 is a terrible rule. It provides a "safety valve" for a shooter who just shot a no-shoot and is then faced with a metal plate on a stand. "ooops, I accidently shot the stand......reshoot".

As previously pointed out...at Area 1 in Missoula during the Hot Potato stage, one of the more creative shooters wore a womans bra to strategically carry the "potato" during the COF ...and then removed it for the rest of the match.....this was allowed BTW. So by your definition/interpertation of 4.5.1...is that "altering" a stage?

Well he may not of understood my question about using magazines as marker (however I clearly asked "can a person use magazines as "markers" on a stage if they don't use them during the COF)...but I'm VERY certain he understood my question about using a roll of tape to prop the gun because I asked the question directly 2 times (his first response was that its the requirement of the WSB to clearly spell out the start position)...I then again asked specifically about propping the gun with a roll of tape (assuming the WSB said "gun on table" and nothing more)....and thats where he said that a roll of tape would be legal provided the WSB didn't state either "gun laying flat" on table or "gun can't be propped with a roll of tape". If you want more clarification, I'd suggest sending John an email and asking more questions.

well here's some other information I've received from John. I asked about if it would be legal to prop a gun up with a roll of tape and introducing items into a stage. Johns answer was that (and I'm paraphrasing).... if the WSB DIDN'T say that you couldn't prop the gun with a roll of tape..then you could...but if the WSB said "gun laying flat" or "can't be propped up with a roll of tape" then you couldn't. Furthermore he said that the introduction of "items" into a COF is no different than a shooter facing a low port on a stage and deciding to go back to his range bag and grabbing a set of knee pads. The shooter has now added "items" to a COF. I didn't pose the question about if the shooter decided to use these "items" as markers however based on what John has said about adding items to a COF (and using the knee pads as an example)...I'd guess that unless the RO objected to it .... it would be allowed too. 4.5.1 talks about interfering with the range surface. I'd interpret that as filling in holes in the range surface or other similar ideas....I don't believe dragging your toe across the dirt is interfering (because if that was the case...I'm going to REALLY interfere with the stage when I run around on it!) and I'd guess placing a "marker" wouldn't be interfering either...and there's nothing in the rule book about altering a stage (and this doesn't really fall under section 2.3 either).

I had hoped that John would have addressed this question to him as I had asked him for clarification on this specifically. There is nothing in the rule book about "altering" a course of fire..only interfering with it... 4.5.1 The competitor must not interfere with the range surface, natural foliage, constructions, props or other range equipment (including targets, target stands and target activators) at anytime. Violations may incur one procedural penalty per occurrence at the discretion of the Range Officer. So I guess the feeling here (from what your saying above) is that dragging your toe across the dirt (or placing a magazine) is "interfering" with a COF IF the RO (at their discretion) views it as such?

Ok..here's my follow up. I asked John Amidon if there was any ruling that prevents a shooter from introducing items into a COF such as propping a gun up using a magazine or roll of tape, etc. Johns response was "Rule 3.2.1 states that you must list on the stage briefing such things as start position and gun ready condition, it is up to the RO to see that everyone gets the same fair chance by following the stage procedure. The best way to control this in the first place, is to put into the stage briefing, that gun is on table, loaded, muzzle down range and laying flat on table, gun may not be propped up." So there you have it. The requirement is that if you don't want the gun propped on the start, you should say so in the WSB. If you don't say so in the WSB, then its up to the shooter as to how they want to start the gun. John also pointed out that if the shooter does prop the gun and then launches it off the table on the start (or the gun falls off the table because the gun tips over)...its a DQ (obviously). I asked John to comment about using "markers" such as magazines or other items and didn't get an answer to that one. Apparently thats OK too?

I've asked John Amidon for a ruling on all of this as there seems to be two beliefs right now...1) you can use your mags as props/markers and 2) you can't. When I get a response, I'll pass it on.

..... I'm just happy I WASN'T there to see it! EEEEEW!

I don't think 4.5.1 (or 4.5.2) really addresses that...it discussed "interfering" (which I would interpret that as altering existing stage equipment/props etc). I don't see that addressing "adding" things to a COF.

On a similar but different note....at Area 1 during the "hot potato" stage, one of the more creative shooters went out and bought a certain article of womens undergarmet to "carry" the potato during the COF....but didn't use it for the rest of the match. Is that legal? (i.e. was it legal to use it in the first place. If so, should they be required to wear it for the rest of the match?)

This is actually two questions Q1) At a recent match, a stage's start description was "loaded gun on table....hands relaxed at sides" with the shooter standing behind the table. One of the more creative shooters decided to try and prop his gun up using a spare magazine (which he didn't use for the COF). While something didn't seem "right" about doing so, we couldn't find anything in the rule book that prohibits a shooter from using it. We bucked the question up to the MD who ruled that the gun must be laying flat (and then changed the written stage description....but who knows if anyone else previously tried this trick). So what rule (if any) prevents a shooter from using a spare magazine (or a roll of tape, brick, rock, block of wood, etc) from proping a gun up on the start signal? Q2) Unloaded gun starts. We've had a few stages in the NWS that describe "unloaded gun on table" starts. We've also had a few "seasoned" shooters around here strongly claim that "unloaded gun" ALWAYS means slide forward, hammer down gun laying flat on table because "thats the way we've always done it". Again, I can't find anything in the rule book that implies that "unloaded" gun would mean that the slide is forward and the hammer is down or the gun is flat on the table. I've also seen many shooters attempt to position their "unloaded" gun on the table using the magwell and the guide rod as contact points when the COF doesn't specify laying flat on table.

Damn things? Ok Tom...thats it....turn in your Single Stack membership card at the door! Some people just don't appreciate the finer things in life!

I'm in also...first time to the OSSC

Time to whip out that article on golf Tom! Bruce...the book I told you about is With Winning In Mind by Lanny Bassham. It talks to GREAT extent about what your discussing.

I don't know if thats the right answer either. I know of a few local GM's who commented (and I quote) "$150 for a plaque match? You've got to be kidding. I could spend about that much for a match with a prize table". For me, shooting is about shooting... Area 1 in Marysville in 2001 had no prize table (at least none that I can remember...I sucked so bad back then, I wouldn't know! ) ...but it DID have TGO, Max Michel Jr, Saul Kirsch, Travis Tomasie and a few others I can't remember off the top of my head....so it can be done. The question remains....HOW?

OK...I'll put my vote in for the Fri-Sun format with the awards ceremony IMMEDIATELY following the match (especially considering you've got the latency time down to 2 minutes from last shot fired to final stats!) Reno did it last year in 2003....other Area matches seem to do OK with the Fri-Sun format. Regarding the addition time off from work .... 265 > 20

Yeah...I'm curious as to how the Thur-Sat schedule was accepted overall by the shooters for Missoula. Personally I think Fri-Sun works better. I realize that the Thur-Sat schedule was adopted to give more sightseeing time...but are the matches being put on for tourism...or for shooters? I'd like to see it go back to Fri-Sun! BTW...nice avatar Tom!

Thanks Sam...I remembered when you shot my stage that I told you, you had the best L10 time on the stage...I wish I had a chance to talk with you and Ron more but Stage 3 just seemed like an episode of running around with your hair on fire....way too many "problems" to speak of....and I felt bad for the other squads that had to sit around and wait for it to clear. Again...great job and I'm REALLY happy to see a single stack WIN L10!!!! Sorta proves the point that you don't NEED a widebody to compete in L10.....trust me, you did WONDERS for the promotion of single stack in L10 by winning Area 1.

Looks like I'll be part of the solution for the 2007 Area 1 "License to Thrill" Championship in Marysville. I already signed up for CRO duty for that one too. I'm just going to be a "shooter" for Albany....if I see a Nerf Football....I'm going to burn it!

Thanks Ron....I was going to try and come over and talk with you for a bit but as you and everyone else probably knew...stage 3 had its issues and we we're backed up most of the time.

I was really glad to see a single stack gun win in L10. Having run Stage 3, I got to see what alot of the shooters in L10 were using. Almost all of them had single stack guns.....kinda puts an end to the myth that in order to win in L10, you've got to run a widebody gun. Congrats to Sam for the win! L10 and single stacks rule! Long live L10!!!

My mission in life now is to KILL all nerf footballs. I suspected my little in/out was going to cost me the match...it did! Alma...thanks for "watching my back" on stage 3.....and also the tips! I also want to personally thank all the helpers on stage 3. You guys rocked! As you all know, we faced a lot of hurdles on stage 3 and the workers picked up the slack....and for one of the workers who thought I was a lawyer by profession (and I'm sure he meant it in the nicest way!!! ) No I'm not....software engineer...it's sorta like an attorney....analysis and consistancy is part of my job.....and "no, I'm always a Yankee fan!" The Cubies will have to survive without me. Advice for everyone...never complain to Bruce Gary about anything in Reno, Nevada and you'll get along fine in life!

OK, so you'd be walking a little funny... but hey, no daytime speed limits in Montana! Bruce <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'd be walking ALOT funny! Is that still true...no daytime speed limits in Montana? I had heard years ago that was the case but I also thought later I had heard that they imposed some arbitrary limit. Its been a while since I've been driving in Montana. If I can make some time up when I cross the boarder....I'll do it! With a top speed of 185MPH on the bike...I could make up some SERIOUS time! FOLLOWUP: I just looked, it appears the speed limit is now 75 in Montana....so much for 185!