Thomas H

I agree....but yet I don't. Speaking as someone who drive to another state originally to get my RO class (definitely not at a discount), paid to take the CRO course online, and recently paid for the RM certification, I'd really like it if the RO class didn't cost, and that there were more of them. That would be awesome. The problem is (IMO)----think of all the people you know who try to be good ROs and CROs who still make small mistakes every once in awhile. Are those people prepared to teach the rules? (Noting also that just because someone knows the rules doesn't mean they can teach them...providing information and teaching information are two different things.) Having a specific RMI corps made up of people who have studied how to teach the class to best make sure that new ROs can do the best possible job with the best understanding of the rules, using a curriculum that gets checked and re-vetted periodically, really does make a difference in terms of having ROs who know the rules and can apply them correctly Sure, there are some folks who have certification who really aren't that good at it, and we definitely have some ROs who don't keep current on the rules. But nonetheless, currently if an RO is certified, they'll probably do a solid job with the rules, on average. Having less-experienced and less-knowledgeable people teaching the class---means a worse transfer of knowledge. Might it be "good enough"? I don't know. I do know that everyone already probably knows at least one RO that you'd rather not have, because he isn't really that good, and I'm betting we'd have more of them and more confusion about rules or rule application among otherwise good ROs if we had less-experienced instructors. And if you have instructors coming in for a class, then it costs. Whether that cost (now that you bring your own rulebook and don't get a notebook) is still correct for the class (because it hasn't been adjusted, I don't think) that's a different story. But at the very least, you've got to pay for the instructors. So....I think it is more complicated than "we want more ROs, the class should be free" and requires more knowledge and understanding of instructors than "we could just train up some CROs to teach ROs". Opinions may vary. Edited to add: I'll note that in my area (middle of the U.S., in a section covering two states but with only 12 clubs) there is still fairly good access to RO classes. I think that people near me had a chance at no less than 4 RO classes in this past year within a 3-hour or so drive. So...there's that. Aren't more RO classes being held now than in the past?

Subtly removed? It was actually a fairly large, well-known, and obvious discussion. (Since it required a change to the bylaws.) There wasn't anything subtle about it! So yes, we ARE aware of it. Yup. And they are all incorporated into the rulebook, so you don't need to actually go check them out one by one, unless you want a further explanation of something (which is sometimes useful). It is actually more a change log than anything---it ISN'T is a separate set of rulings that you need to know in addition to the rulebook, which is rather nice. PatJones completely said it right: ...and if you want a paper copy, there's this thing called a printer... ...and if you want a correct copy, download it. Which anyone can do easily.

No, you complained about something false. If you want a printed rulebook that can be out-of-date, you can print one. It is certainly true that the rulebook IS indeed available easily to absolutely everyone in the most up-to-date fashion at all times. You said: "that is something uspsa should provide to its customers and its range officials, they don't give rule books to range officers at nationals, never seen a printed rule book on a stage after they went to the online version, even at nationals" .....and they obviously do provide them. Or are you claiming that the CROs didn't have an electronic version available to them on the stages?

It is interesting to me that people keep saying that there is an "on-deck" area. The rules don't say anything like that, merely that someone can case/uncase at the berm, and the person that can do so is the on-deck person. Normally, at our matches, the few people who uncase at the berm just walk up to the shooting box and wait there with their rifle held vertically while the stage is being reset, and at make ready, do their thing. There is no requirement to wait in an "on-deck area" because there isn't any such thing. The "on-deck" part is merely saying which person can uncase their gun at the berm, that's all. Note: This isn't an argument for or against the process---I personally don't care, and don't think it speeds up (much) or slows down (at all) the match. There's nothing wrong with it. I personally prefer to bag/unbag at the shooting box because I like to stand there and airgun while the stage is being reset, and I can't do that if I'm holding my rifle already. Other people don't care, and since they also are ready at the shooting box when it is time to shoot, it definitely doesn't slow down the match, and arguably speeds it up slightly because it is true that bagging/unbagging takes slightly longer than bringing the gun from vertical to horizontal.

At a guess, one of the problems with this year's attendance will be how early it is, and the continued uncertainty about what various states will be doing with regard to covid restrictions. I'd be curious as to what the registration was in past years at this point in time, given that general registration isn't open yet, and most Sections only got their slots a couple of weeks ago.

They literally made the rulebook available to anyone via PDF. You can connect to it at any time. If you can't connect, you can read a copy you've saved to any electronic device. It is a PDF file. The rulebook is always up-to-date, never have to worry about having missed a rule change or a clarification update. Everyone can always have the most-current version. Given that, I'm pretty sure USPSA does indeed provide it to its customers and range officials. And matches I've been to, I haven't had any problem finding a device with the rulebook on it. (Of course, when I'm a CRO at a major, I bring a rulebook on a tablet as part of my kit, because that's part of my job. Then again, I always have a copy of the rulebook with me at any match, because it is easy to do, and useful.) Edited to add: I agree that for me, reading the rulebook on a phone is annoying. Plenty of other people don't have a problem with it, though. Those that do, however, should fix their own problems and use a tablet like I do when it is necessary.

in response to Hoops asking: Moto was talking about what shooters CHOSE to do, versus what the match required. At worlds, they didn't require people to bag/unbag at the box, it is just that most people happened to do that, and Moto said as shooters, they chose that. It wasn't a match rule about berms, far as I know. (Which makes sense, as SCSA rules allow it.)

...when did you last clean your mags? I'm asking this because I've seen plenty of different kinds of ammo do precisely that in mags---much of which occurs in winter, due to the coating on the bullets sometimes getting scraped off on the interior of the front of the magazines and then hardening up in the cold, which makes the bullets hang up when the gun cycles. It isn't specific to the CCI stuff. When that happens, I'd suggest: 1) pulling apart your mags, and running a brush through them to clean out anything stuck to the insides, 2) in winter, keeping your pistol mags in a cooler with a couple of handwarmers. (Also, after loading the mag, smack it so the bullets settle to the back of the mag. Depending on your mags, this might help.) Keeping the mags warm in the winter can make a HUGE difference in their reliability. I normally keep them in a cooler between stages, and stick them in my pocket (with another handwarmer) when I'm in the shooting box. Doing that is often the difference between a gun that runs, and a lot of click/rack/bang/click/rack/bang strings of fire.

I agree with the above. That being said, the rule says: 5.1.3 The on-deck competitor, if shooting a Rimfire Rifle or PCC, may unbag or remove their firearm from the 3-gun cart or case into a side berm or staging area provided the bay being used has sufficient side-berm space to permit this practice. Once the firearm is removed from the case or cart the muzzle must remain pointed reasonably vertical (up or down), at all times, with a chamber flag inserted, until the Make Ready command is issued. Given this, no, the RO doesn't need to escort them back and forth, or anything similar, and the on-deck competitor doesn't need to wait for permission to go get their gun. Matter of fact, they don't need to necessarily wait there until they go to the shooting box. As long as the muzzle is up/down appropriately and stay within the bay, there isn't any given limit on where they can go. I agree that in SC it really isn't necessary---bagging/unbagging at the shooting box is by far the easiest. (Or taking from a cart, etc.) But the rule allows it, and doesn't have a requirement for any berm specifics other than "sufficient side-berm space." It isn't a "pre-staging" area like may be used in a Multigun match. If the PCC/RFR is uncased and flagged, and carried vertically, that's the sum of the requirements---they don't have to wait for any RO commentary or instruction, nor do they have to wait at the berm. After they are done shooting, the gun is flagged, and it is vertical---they can just walk off and head back to the berm while everyone else paints and so on. No need for RO commentary, escort, or instructions. It isn't a staging area. It just happens to be at a side berm so there is a safe direction for the firearm to be pointed while it is cased/placed in the cart.

...and I simply threw a Primary Arms Advanced Microdot on mine, and that was good. It is a rifle---the dot is always going to be close to your eyes, and always in the same spot, from a stable position. As such, dot size doesn't have nearly the amount of importance that it does for a pistol (in terms of your eyes picking it up quickly, and so on). Just needs to have a good brightness. Nothing wrong with the various optics that people have said so far, I'll note. And the slideride is a solid choice, used by MANY people. But if you don't feel like spending that much (or at least, not initially), that's okay. Plenty of other things can be worked on before your dot is the only thing that holds you back from winning, as long as it is bright enough to see. (A good trigger makes a HUGE difference comparatively in Steel Challenge, for example.) The PA dot is $149, 2 MOA, and it didn't stop me from breaking 70 seconds at a major match in RFRO. -- L3232

I have read the rulebook. I was asking SGT_Schultz if he thought it was in the rulebook. A lot of people add rules that don't exist. SGT_Schultz has not been one of those in the past, so I wanted to clarify. Either I had missed something in the rulebook (which seemed unlikely in this case since I know this pretty well, but was still possible), or a statement was being made that we should clarify for people---because I HAVE run into people in the past who that thought it was against the rules to reload on the clock, and would attempt to enforce that at matches. And we don't want people making up rules. When I asked SGT_Schultz "Or do you mean that you shouldn't, because if you need to, you have already lost?" however, he just replied "The latter." ...which is what I expected, since again, he normally knows the rules perfectly well. But I wanted to check. You CAN reload, it isn't against the rules. And I've seen plenty of people in restricted-capacity divisions do precisely that (especially on stages like Outer Limits and Pendulum). At local levels, you can sometimes reload and still win. It is certainly better than taking a 30, no matter what.

One minor note: You generally do NOT want anyone else to say the time out loud until the range is clear and you have initially said it to the timer for official record. The reason for that is that there is a circumstance in which the shooter may be offered a reshoot, but only IF they have not heard the time for the stage. (Or know their hits.). Being in the habit of not having the tablet person say the time until you have officially done so precludes this from being an issue. You are the one who knows if you are going to offer the reshoot, so if you have given the time, obviously it is okay. But...sometimes you may have to ask the competitor a question before that point in time. (8.6.4) It is rare, but it does happen. Agree with all the rest of it. Having the timer in your peripheral vision during the last shot so that you can see the numbers change (and thus be certain you caught the last shot) and then glancing at the time (then putting the timer behind you so that the scoring RO can see it) prior to giving the ULSC command are all good practices. Then having the scoring RO repeat back everything you say (time and scoring hits through the stage) to not only verify that they recorded correctly what you said, but that the shooter hears it clearly and KNOWS it has been recorded correctly--that helps, too.

Because doing that at a non-USPSA match would work so well.

I'll note that back when revo was 6-shot, I remember plenty of occasions when someone would hit a reload on the way to the center box on Outer Limits. My question to SGT_Schultz was serious, though: Is he saying that in the rulebook it states that you can't reload on the clock?

You can't? Or do you mean that you shouldn't, because if you need to, you have already lost?

...for the first match or two, while they buy a couple of extra mags and mag pouches. After that, they move to Productiion where their gun fits. Noobs might initially be directly to shoot Limited Minor, but (hopefully) no one tells them to stay there, at least not with a stock 9mm. And sure, in Production you CAN do a lot to the gun now. But you don't need to do so to be competitive at a local level. On the other hand, shooting a stock gun in Limited ISN'T likely to be competitive even at a local level. (Glock 17 with a 17-round mag shooting Minor versus a 2011 with basepads shooting Major...not a good match.) Judging from this thread, things vary widely on a geographical basis---but at least around here, Production continues to be popular, particularly among new folks after a match or two. In general, in our area, Production IS indeed an avenue to get people into USPSA. Plenty of folks shooting their 9mm mostly-stock guns in Production at local matches.

If you are a life member and go to the "renew membership" page, you just get this notice. ....you have to wonder who proofreads their grammar. [sigh]

After about 3 years of shooting USPSA I knew I'd keep doing this as long as I could. As such, a Life membership would save me money in the long run---and not having to remember to renew every year (or every three years, or whatever) was also nice. Higher "tiers" of membership above "Life"---I'm not really sure what the benefits are. (I'm not saying there aren't any, I just don't know what they are. No one has ever explained exactly what they mean in any fashion I've read.) I'm glad I got my Life membership. I just wish I had been able to start USPSA even earlier in my life.

That's rather what I said earlier---the problem isn't with people wearing magnets (whether they are a good idea of not), it is that particularly competitor whining and complaining when they do something against the rules that gets them bumped to open. Match staff is tired of that. Which is rather why they are telling people to just not do it. The rules are clear---you CAN do it, in specific and very limited ways. No one is arguing against that. They ARE saying, however, considering the number of people who get kicked to Open because they can't follow those limiting rule, that it is just easier to not wear a magnet in divisions where you can use the magnet. You said: "I don't get why it matters so much to you what other people do. You say it doesn't matter but you seem to be real concerned about what someone else is doing or what they buy." And as people have pointed out, that isn't what is going on here. You also said: "I really don't care what another shooter does as long as they don't put me in or anyone in danger, the match staff can deal with it, not my concern." As match staff, apparently it IS our concern, so why are you telling us that we shouldn't be concerned about what someone else is doing? There is a big difference between "can do this" and and "it is a good idea to do this." Wearing magnets, and the people who wear them who don't understand how the rules work regarding them in divisions in which you can't use them during the course of fire, belong to the categories of "can do this" and "doing it is a bad idea" at the same time. Unsurprisingly, match staff folks are tired of people yelling at them because the competitor doesn't understand the rules and doesn't like being bumped to Open.

My Mark II doesn't get cleaned NEARLY enough compared to the amount I shoot it, because it is such an enormous pain in the butt to take apart and then put back together.

That's wild! Out here, Production is really, really common. Was it always a low-turnout division? Or has it dropped that much in the last year or two?

Any of the guns you mention will be fine. Buy the Buckmark you obviously want to get, then do what you need to do to it to make it 100% reliable. After that, see what you can do to make the trigger lighter and smooth. And there you go! I shoot RFPI with a Ruger Mark II (with the long bull barrel) that I bought in 1991, and I'm currently 13th GM on the Top 20 list for RFPI. I put a FO front sight on it, and added a Volquartsen hammer and sear combination, and that's it---and I have no idea how many rounds I've shot through that gun. I bought it for $129, and have put a whopping $70 more into it for parts. While there ARE guns out there that will make it more difficult to do well, the list you initially posted doesn't contain them. If you want to spend more money, or like the looks of the more expensive guns, you can completely do that, and it'll be all sorts of fun. But there isn't any gun on the list you originally came up with (including the Buckmark) that will hold you back from being as good as you want to be, as long as you do whatever the gun needs to make it reliable. I shoot RFPO with a Mark III 22/45 Lite with Primary Arms Advanced Microdot and a Tandemkross comp on it, plus a Volquartsen hammer/sear combo. I've got a classification percentage of 104% in RFPO. You don't have to buy one of the expensive guns to do perfectly well. If you WANT to buy one of the expensive ones, go for it---they look cool, and they run well. But----any reliable decent .22 from your initial list will also work completely fine.

From my standpoint, it doesn't. What does matter is listening to someone else at a match complaining when they get bumped to Open for not following the rules, and then continuing to complain about it, and having to deal with that from a match official standpoint. It makes me, at least, not want to deal with anyone else complaining about it. Pretty much everything in this thread has been said before, including the complaining and the lack of understanding of the rule. It is a lot easier to just tell someone "Hey, in that division, the easiest thing to do is buy another mag pouch and not have a magnet, because that way there is NO possibility of making a mistake and getting bumped to Open for your magnet" than it is to go through yet another explanation of what the rule is, that the rule isn't going to change anytime soon, and that the person's misunderstanding of the application of the rule will probably get them in trouble at some point in time. People CAN wear magnets in Production. That's legal, as long as you follow the rules. It isn't a good idea, though---quite the contrary, it is a dumb idea with no particular upside.

True. But.....if you want to win majors, the skills required to do well on classifiers are also required to win majors. They aren't the ONLY skills, as you have pointed out. Movement skills, stage breakdown skills, positioning skills---all of those are important also. But...to win majors, you also have to quickly handle the gun with significant accuracy, which the classifiers do test. Another way of putting it, IMO: People who are good at classifiers don't necessarily win major matches. But people who win major matches ARE good at classifiers, because the skills needed to be good at classifiers are a subset of the skills needed to win major matches.

Maybe nationally Production may be dying (though I don't actually think so), but it certainly isn't happening locally. At our local club, Production is (as usual) the second-largest division by a significant amount. In our Section, Limited has the most participation, with Production and Carry Optics almost matching for the second place spot. Production and Limited this year have almost the exact same percentage of activity participation as they had last year. PCC, SS, and Open are all down slightly---with CO increasing as much as those three collectively reduced. (Rev stayed about the same, but that's because there are only a couple of guys that shoot it, and they'll never change.) I'm a Production guy who has recently (in the last two years) switched to CO. Like many, if my eyes were what they used to be, I'd probably still be shooting Production. (And I still periodically shoot Production.) However, given my eyes, AND the increases in technology plus the guns available, it is no surprise to me that many more people are shooting it. Dots are fun, and lots more people are pushing them on handguns for all sorts of reasons. (And I'll note that I think that the change from 10 rounds to 140mm was brilliant, and it obviously worked.) I think it is perfectly okay to let people have fun however they like, so telling people they aren't having fun right because they are in a division that doesn't require as many reloads and a different type of stage planning seems....odd. Especially if those people weren't saying it to Open and Limited shooters before. (And if they were, why?) At local matches, some guy comes in to try the sport. He's got a stock 9mm, so we tell him to shoot Limited Minor his first time, to get an idea how this works, and then to talk to people about their gear. A ton of those guys, if they come back, head into Production because they don't have a dot gun and don't want to get one. In our Section, at least, this hasn't changed.