Thomas H

Hm. So you are saying that clubs don't need to follow the rules? I mean, I've specifically mentioned only the rules that official SCSA clubs are required to follow. Is there a problem with that? With regard to "very dogmatic and argumentative" ---- I can't help that you may be adding tone to simple words. I asked about wording that didn't seem to make sense, I asked about rules that didn't seem to match official club rules, and I mentioned that politeness is a thing. If you have an issue with those simple words because you are adding random emotions on your own, , I can't do much about it. It would help, however, if you replied to a topic. So: Ming, do YOU think that clubs should follow the SCSA rules if they are an affiliated club?

(This was regarding 5.2.4.2, and carrying in the hand.) I've seen several stages over time where the WSB specifically said that stowing or carrying was not allowed, and violating that resulted in procedural penalties for not following the WSB. In cases of barrel starts (for magazines) where the WSB did NOT prohibit stowing and such, carrying was legal. My understanding was that the WSB could specifically prohibit stowing, but if it didn't, it was legal due to 5.2.4.2.

"Don't be daft." Huh. Politeness, it's a thing. You specified 9mm Major, that's why I asked. (In a separate sentence, you talked about velocity.) Since you specified it, it seemed odd that would be the caliber singled out, since .38 Super is (in general) more in use and goes just as fast. Hence, the question. And yes, I asked if they ran USPSA matches, and I'm aware the OP was asking about SC matches. You said "some clubs" and so on, and oddly enough, a lot of clubs running official SC matches also run USPSA matches, hence the question. I'm personally not aware of any official SC club that has said velocity requirement since that isn't in the SC ruleset, and therefore the club itself would have to get permission from SCSA HQ to add a rule, unless of course they aren't official. Have they gotten official written permission from USPSA/SCSA to make that additional restriction? Or are they not official SC clubs? As for the "they must not run USPSA matches" that was more along the lines of "people who run USPSA matches know that if you have decent steel, velocities such as that aren't an issue." So....people can't run standard factory 115 gr 9mm out of PCCs, either, since those tend to go over 1250? Do they chrono everyone? Or do they just not allow PCC, either?

They discourage 9mm Major but not .38 Super Major? Do they allow PCC? And 1250 fps max? I take it these clubs don't run USPSA matches? (Because 124 gr .38 super is going to need a significantly higher velocity than that to make Major, and there's plenty of steel targets in USPSA...)

No, you are talking about a different stage. ( I'm not disagreeing that there were also some poppers at that distance.) But I recall paper targets on a Fixed Time stage out to that distance also, which is what I was talking about.

Didn't A3 quite awhile back have a standards stage what included full-size paper targets out to 75 yards, back when Manny was running it? (2008? 2009?) 40-45 yard poppers are a common thing at the current A3 yearly match. I've shot 40-45 yard paper and poppers at locals. (Not well, but I've shot AT them. )

Since you can hold it on your strong side (stock touching strong side hip) and with your weak hand holding it by the forearm, with your strong hand relaxed at your side right next to the grip, that's a legal start position. It isn't forcing you to hold it on your weak side, merely with your weak hand. Personally, I don't like start positions like this because I prefer to have PCC shooters start with both hands on the gun. But it is still legal.

You do? When on the line in front of an RO? What rule is that? (If you are talking about the Safety Area, sure. But....none of the comments regarding PCC and such were about the safety area, so I'm not sure what you mean here.)

I personally don't care, because if it is held correctly, then it shouldn't be a problem. ....shouldn't. However, that's separate from what the rules say, and I see where they are coming from because if people are fiddling with optics while holding the gun in random places, they are MUCH more likely to stop paying attention to the direction of the muzzle, and then it turns into a safety issue. So I'll follow the rules, and remind people to not mess with the optics anywhere but on the line under the direction of an RO, or in a safety area. It does seem pretty straightforward to me. Don't fiddle with stuff unless in a safety or on the line, just like a handgun.

I personally think half the problem with the "muzzle up OR down" thing is that each works best in different situations. For example, when carrying the PCC, muzzle up almost always means that the muzzle is above your head height. Really hard to sweep anyone. Conversely, when in a cart, muzzle-down generally has the PCC pointing at the base/wheels of the cart, so again, really hard to sweep anyone. Carrying the opposite way in both cases gives entirely to many chances to sweep others, IMO. (Muzzle-up in a cart is simply going to sweep people, because the muzzle itself is so low. Carrying muzzle-down doesn't make it likely to sweep someone, but it is MORE likely than if carried muzzle-up with the muzzle above the carrier's head.) People don't necessarily pay attention to that, though. One thing I'm making sure to remind my local shooters about is the "you can't do anything but uncase at the berm, so don't fiddle with the dot because it is a DQ" thing. I get why the rule is that way, but people will be people, and they are treating the berm like a temporary safety area, and that's a problem.

I must admit, the ONLY thing I really detest about the new rulebook is how you can't do a good, simple search for a rule using the app. Seriously, you can't search for "10.5" in the app. It won't take it. Wasn't the POINT of the app to be able to do this easily?! Sheesh. (As others have also said, download the rules as a PDF, and use the free Adobe reader for it---you can do USEFUL searches that way.)

This, by the way, is why I don't understand the problem people are having. People want the organization to print/bind/make rulebooks for everyone (or create a "low-cost copy", and send them to everyone---even though you could print it on your own for $5, or if you want something slightly more special, head to the local copy center and for less than $10, get a bound edition. ...I mean, if I'm printing one out, I'm going to print it out full-size (because then not only is it easier to read, but it is easier to point out to someone else specific rules). It isn't like it is hard to do, or expensive. Heck, most copy centers will let you show up with a file on a USB drive to print out---you don't even need to have printed out an original copy. As for the "now they can change things all the time anytime" crowd, it is like the bylaws just don't exist for people. Whether they print a copy or not makes no difference to rule changes and interpretations occurring, or their time frame. Personally, I'm planning on using a large personal tablet I've got, when I'm CRO-ing a stage (or being an RM). Easy to read, search, etc---and will always be up to date. When I'm an RM, that's how I'm going to have the rulebook.

There's a BIG difference between "among the general shooters" and "people who go and shoot Nationals." It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the % of striker-fired guns at Level I matches in Production is HUGE compared to the % at Nationals.

That's outstanding!

...and the mag thing is interesting to me, because over the years shooting various 10/22s for various reasons, I've had more problems with factory Ruger 10/22 10-round mags than I have with 25-rounders. And for me, of all things, the Champion (clear, with green plastic followers) 25-round mags have been ridiculously reliable. The BX-25 ones have worked out just fine, also, AS LONG AS I keep wiping down the front of the mag lips. I probably have a good 8-9 10-rounders that aren't reliable, though. The good thing is that right now, mags for 10/22s aren't expensive.

Ruger Mark II with the long bull barrel. Threw in a Volquartsen hammer and sear combination, changed out the front sight for a fiber optic, and added the extended mag release mostly so that when I lend it out to people they have an easier time reloading it. Originally, I thought that the long bull barrel would make it slower for me, so I also tried a Ruger Mark III 22/45 with the short bull barrel (and the same hammer/sear/FO front sight mods as above). The Mark II was still demonstrably faster.

I called them and said "Hey, since this just happened AND I paid for two separate Life memberships..." And so they gave me a choice: either a refund for one of the Life membership costs, or upgrade to a B. At the time, I needed the money more than I needed the "B" prefix. I'm not surprised about SC---it is a great sport for everyone. Both for new folks, AND for people who have been shooting awhile. We get a number of people who start in SC, then get interested in USPSA, and end up doing both. SC is by far our biggest draw for people new to the shooting sports. I track our shooters locally with regard to what matches they shoot, and how many, but I am not going to assume that our club is representative of anything other than our local area. It would be interesting to see how many people just stick with one sport, though, and if there is any commonality of demographic.

The 2019 Great Plains Steel Challenge Championship, a Level II SC match, will be held on April 27th and 28th , 2019, at the Eastern Nebraska Gun Club near Louisville, NE. Cost: $35 for the first division, $15 for all additional divisions. Shooters may compete in up to six divisions. Competitors will squad and shoot in a half-day format. Meaning: each squad will shoot all 8 stages in a half-day block—squads will shoot either the morning or the afternoon on each day, and complete the match for the divisions shot in that half-day section. As such there will be four shooting blocks available for competitors to shoot the match (Saturday morning, Saturday afternoon, Sunday morning, and Sunday afternoon) with seven squads per block. Competitors may shoot up to 2 divisions per block. Registration is via Practiscore (of course!) and information, the registration link, the payment link, and the matchbook are available on the match website at https://enps.us/matches/major-matches/great-plains-steel-challenge-championship This is a a plaques match, though there WILL some random-draw prizes. See the match website for details. See you at the match!

At all? Yikes. That sucks. (This thread has me thinking I need to check my insurance, because I really don't like wearing over-the-head ear pro. I know that hearing aids for measured hearing loss is covered, and I have an HSA I could use for this....)

Since this isn't about me, I'm thinking pretty much all of that is irrelevant to the topic. Not to mention fairly sad as an attempt to make a point. It is also interesting coming from someone who has recorded match scores in SC only for the last two years. But that would make you a good person to ask: Were you shooting SC matches prior to that, as a non-member? Were you already a member of USPSA, so that getting a membership wasn't anything extra once you starting shooting SC? That's a good question for most folks here---I wonder what percentage of us shot USPSA before we started Steel Challenge, and thus already had the membership? Did anyone start in SC, and immediately get the membership? If not, how many matches did you shoot before you got it? Did you shoot any Level II matches first? For those who had the USPSA membership first----how long did you shoot USPSA before getting a membership? Was "being able to shoot a Level II match" one of the reasons you ended up getting a USPSA membership? (My expectation is that if people like the sport enough to read and discuss things here, they probably didn't have any issues with spending the money on a membership, because those of use who spend time here tend to be really into the sport. So it'll be interesting to hear how many people still shot a number of matches before joining.) Anyone have an idea what percentage of their local match entries are from people who aren't members? Anyone track how many of those folks go on to later get memberships? For me, for example, I got my membership to USPSA after my second local USPSA match (A52525 at the time). After USPSA bought SCSA, my club affiliated there also, and I bought that membership, too. Pretty soon after that, I bought separate Life memberships to both organizations---about 3 months before they said "Hey, membership in one counts for both!" So for me, since I was already shooting matches, the minute I knew I could shoot affiliated matches, I joined up, even though it was a separate membership fee at the time. But far as I can tell, most shooters who come out to shoot local matches don't necessarily think that way. (I think it was a great idea to make it a combined USPSA/SCSA membership, because I think it'll pull people more easily into both sports, which is what we want.) Zach, does USPSA keep track of the number of people who are membership who shoot USPSA-only, or SC-only? And track those numbers over time? I wonder how many members only participate in one sport, and if there is any particular demographic where that trend is more obvious.

This was in response to lawboy's original comment of: "I don't want to pay dues, paint targets, and wait my turn behind your friends who are too cheap to pay the dues. They can go play golf. Yeah, yeah, new shooters ... we do not need them." Interesting viewpoint, since non-members pay the same match fees (which support the sport), and paint/reset the stages just like everyone else. And like I said, I'm personally for growing the sport by pulling in more people. But that's me.

As people have pointed out, this isn't a legal stage. As such, if you are going by the rulebook for everything ELSE (like penalties) you are going to get situations in which the penalties don't make much sense. No cover lines---therefore no cover calls. Can't make those. (The people who are well-versed in IDPA rules should update, I think.) Can only give one procedural for failing to follow the WSB, at most, if you want to go that route. The rules for FTDR state explicitly: A 20 second Failure To Do Right penalty is assessed for gross unsportsmanlike conduct. (Therefore it has to be deliberate. You don't manage gross unsportsmanlike conduct by forgetting something.) This was not "gross unsportsmanlike conduct" according to the OP, since he says that the shooter literally forgot. (Whether or not I believe that of the shooter isn't germane to this discussion, I'll note.) The rules also say: "The FTDR is intended to be used solely as a penalty for acts on the part of the shooter to circumvent or violate the rules and by doing so gain a competitive advantage." The shooter did not act to violate the rules or circumvent the rules to gain a competitive advantage---his actions may have done so, but his acts were not intended to do so. And intent is literally a part of the FTDR rules. It directly says that it should not be assessed in cases of "inadvertent shooter errors." (Which, according to the OP, this was.) And considering that this actually DOES match the defined characteristics for an FP, as listed... (Shooting from incorrect positions.) I'll note that FPs are still supposed to occur based on deliberate intent of the shooter ("obvious intent" in rule 5.2.1A) but nonetheless, it matches some of the examples listed. So: No FTDR, it can't be. FP, at best. One. And if that gives a competitive advantage, that would be because it was an illegal stage in the beginning, so it makes sense that calling penalties based on that stage procedure is going to be screwed up.

2.8 Start Conditions All CoFs will be started with the pistol holstered, safeties engaged as required by different divisions, and hands clear of equipment including the concealment garment unless other positions for the pistol are stipulated in the written stage description (table top, drawer, pack, purse, in the firing hand, etc.). SSP Start Condition: 8.2.1.1 Start Condition A.Selective DA/SA firearms will start hammer down. B.Firearms with a hammer de-cocking lever or button will have their hammer de-cocked using the lever or button. C. If the hammer must be lowered by pulling the trigger and manually lowering the hammer, the hammer will be lowered to the lowest position possible. D.Manual safeties may be engaged at the shooter’s discretion. ESP Start Condition: 8.2.2.1 Start Condition: A. Single action only firearms will start with the hammer cocked and the safety engaged. B. Selective DA/SA firearms may start cocked and locked or de-cocked, at the shooter’s discretion. C.DA, DAO, or striker fired firearms with a de-cocking lever or button will be de-cocked using the lever or button. D.DA, DAO, or striker-fired firearms may have a manual safety engaged at the shooter’s discretion. 3.9C (concerning WHO-only stages or string) does not given any special permission to go outside of the other rules. So: SSP: Decocked. ESP: Hammer back, safety on. .....UNLESS you are shooting the classifier, which has a special condition for the WHO string(s). "String 3 (6 shots): Start with firearm in weak hand, pointed down range at a 45 degree down angle, safety may be off but the trigger finger must be out of trigger guard." ....but OTHER than the classifier, the rulebook contains no special conditions for anything else. As such, if the WSB says a WHO string can be started with safety off, you can, but otherwise: Safety on. Unless there is something else somewhere I'm missing?

Here's one: (Not the original I was talking about, but this one is fun just because of the size of the muzzle blasts.)