Do you get a sight picture on the second shot of close targets?

[Wesquire]

Experimenting at the range I decided to see what happens at 7 yards when I don't bother seeing a sight picture on follow up shots. I found that every shot stayed within a 5" circle. I've always been slow and I've always trained myself to get at least a blurry front sight picture, but is it okay to basically aim once and squeeze out two shots on close targets? If I'm hitting alphas I'm just not sure what the point would be to refine the sight picture.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Wesquire

[DKorn]

The amount of "sight picture" needed to hit the first shot is the same as the amount needed for the second shot. How much you actually need to see depends on your skill level and the difficulty of the shot. On a close target, it might just be a blurry gun somewhere in the A zone of the target, but there's still some minimum you need to see in order to call the shot. 

[Wesquire]

8 minutes ago, DKorn said:

The amount of "sight picture" needed to hit the first shot is the same as the amount needed for the second shot. How much you actually need to see depends on your skill level and the difficulty of the shot. On a close target, it might just be a blurry gun somewhere in the A zone of the target, but there's still some minimum you need to see in order to call the shot. 

 

I understand what you are saying, but sight picture itself is just a guide for where the gun is aimed. IF you knew the gun was going to be aimed at the A zone, there's zero need for any sight picture.

[Flatland Shooter]

Over in the PCC section Maxamundo talks about controlled bumpfiring his carbine.  This results in very fast double taps probably with only one sight picture.  

 

You can find his comments starting around the 4th page in the "Which Recoil System? JP SCS Gen 2 vs MBX PCC Buffer System" thread.

 

You indicate you can keep both shots in a 5" circle at 7 yards.  If you can do this consistently, why not do it in a match?  I've been a USPSA member for over 30 years and I've seen lot of techniques now used that at one time was considered "wrong",

 

In my case, if it works, I do it.

 

Bill

Edited July 16, 2017 by Flatland Shooter

[Wesquire]

14 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

Over in the PCC section Maxamundo talks about controlled bumpfiring his carbine.  This results in very fast double taps probably with only one sight picture.  

 

You can find his comments starting around the 4th page in the "Which Recoil System? JP SCS Gen 2 vs MBX PCC Buffer System" thread.

 

You indicate you can keep both shots in a 5" circle at 7 yards.  If you can do this consistently, why not do it in a match?  I've been a USPSA member for over 30 years and I've seen lot of techniques now used that at one time was considered "wrong",

 

In my case, if it works, I do it.

 

Bill

 

I will be trying it next match. I think this might be what Stoeger was referring to when he said you might start bending or breaking marksmanship fundamentals once you get above A class. 

[Flatland Shooter]

58 minutes ago, Wesquire said:

 

I will be trying it next match. I think this might be what Stoeger was referring to when he said you might start bending or breaking marksmanship fundamentals once you get above A class. 

 

Might consider doing it in practice first.  In a match you might only have two or three good opportunities to try a new technique.  

 

Once you are confident you can do it on command, then try a match.

 

Hate to ruin a perfectly good match on experiments.  Don't fall into the "its only a local match" mentality.

 

Bill

 

 

[Wesquire]

27 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Might consider doing it in practice first.  In a match you might only have two or three good opportunities to try a new technique.  

 

Once you are confident you can do it on command, then try a match.

 

Hate to ruin a perfectly good match on experiments.  Don't fall into the "its only a local match" mentality.

 

Bill

 

 

 

I just did it over 300 rounds in practice. I'll probably work up to it in matches. Do it on targets within 4 yards then work up.

 

[enzo357]

Interesting question. To me, it is just as fast to see a quick sight picture as not. The splits are the same.

On the other hand, that quick picture makes it a lot easier to shoot alphas. Taking it a little farther, that habit makes

close partials and no shoots a lot easier. A quick sight picture. I am not saying waste time. Just strong fundamentals.

 

[tanks]

19 hours ago, Wesquire said:

Experimenting at the range I decided to see what happens at 7 yards when I don't bother seeing a sight picture on follow up shots. I found that every shot stayed within a 5" circle. I've always been slow and I've always trained myself to get at least a blurry front sight picture, but is it okay to basically aim once and squeeze out two shots on close targets? If I'm hitting alphas I'm just not sure what the point would be to refine the sight picture.

 

At 7 yards, if one has a good control of the muzzle flip, the sights are not going to go out of the A zone assuming the first shot is at the middle or the bottom half of the A zone. That being said, if one is watching the sights lift and come down how much extra time does it take "to see what you need to see"?

[Wesquire]

4 minutes ago, tanks said:

 

At 7 yards, if one has a good control of the muzzle flip, the sights are not going to go out of the A zone assuming the first shot is at the middle or the bottom half of the A zone. That being said, if one is watching the sights lift and come down how much extra time does it take "to see what you need to see"?

 

IMO "what you need to see" often does not include the sights. At 7 yards I need to vaguely see the front sight in the middle. Inside 5 yards I don't need to see anything other than the gun being pointed towards the A zone. I think it should not be controversial to say that seeing the sights is slower than not. Sure, on a 7 yard bill drill...I'm able to vaguely track the front sight, but that is all noise, it isn't giving me any feedback. I'm not confirming the sight picture before firing.

[DKorn]

8 hours ago, Wesquire said:

 

IMO "what you need to see" often does not include the sights. At 7 yards I need to vaguely see the front sight in the middle. Inside 5 yards I don't need to see anything other than the gun being pointed towards the A zone. I think it should not be controversial to say that seeing the sights is slower than not. Sure, on a 7 yard bill drill...I'm able to vaguely track the front sight, but that is all noise, it isn't giving me any feedback. I'm not confirming the sight picture before firing.

 

Isnt seeing the gun pointing towards the A zone the same as a sight picture, although a very coarse one?

[waktasz]

If you're not getting a sight picture on those shots, what are you doing instead? Looking at butterflies?  I'd rather have that visual input so I know where every bullet is going. It doesn't have to be a lot, but I'm seeing something even when shooting my fastest splits.  This technique will eventually burn when you do it on the wrong target and forget to switch back to aiming mode

 

[Wesquire]

4 minutes ago, waktasz said:

If you're not getting a sight picture on those shots, what are you doing instead? Looking at butterflies?  I'd rather have that visual input so I know where every bullet is going. It doesn't have to be a lot, but I'm seeing something even when shooting my fastest splits.  This technique will eventually burn when you do it on the wrong target and forget to switch back to aiming mode

 

By sight picture, I'm talking about seeing the actual sights. If we take a broad definition of sight picture to mean whatever you are seeing, then what I'm seeing within 7 yards is mostly just the outline of the gun being pointed at the A zone. My vision is 100% focused on the middle of the A zone. Occasionally I will see the front sight for the first shot, and the only feedback I need before firing the second is the outline of the gun returning to position.

[waktasz]

Sounds about right then. Your first post implies you are aiming once and ripping a double tap

[Wesquire]

13 minutes ago, waktasz said:

If you're not getting a sight picture on those shots, what are you doing instead? Looking at butterflies?  I'd rather have that visual input so I know where every bullet is going. It doesn't have to be a lot, but I'm seeing something even when shooting my fastest splits.  This technique will eventually burn when you do it on the wrong target and forget to switch back to aiming mode

 

 

Which one of Ben Stoeger's descriptions of sight picture are you using at each distance? 

 

1. Having your arms aligned with the target 2. Pointing the gun at the target (aiming done by tactile feel) 3. Seeing an outline of your gun on the target 4. Seeing a fiber optic dot on the target while your vision is focused on the target 5. Seeing a blurry sight picture on the target while your vision is focused on the target 6. Having an optical focus on the front sight while your sights are on target 7. Having an optical focus on the front sight and making sure that the sight is “settled”into the target 8. Having an optical focus on the front sight and making sure that the sight is “settled”into the target, and the front and rear blade are in equal height/ equal light alignment 9. Having a stable, front sight focused sight picture with equal height/ equal light alignment, then holding that picture while the trigger is carefully manipulated

 

Within 7 yards I'm probably using #4 for the first shot and #3 for the follow-up.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Wesquire

[synchronicity]

In the few conditions that I have experienced it, #2.  With a bit of #3 and in the back of my mind Knowing that I Need to

 

look for the front sight when the gun goes off and I am moving on.

 

If I could only shoot them all there.

 

[Hammer002]

This.  USPSA Grandmaster sponsored by CZ.  (And a helluva nice guy).  Matt does the Podcast with Ben Stoeger, if that's where you heard Stoeger talking about abandoning many traditional shooting techniques.  And he is absolutely right.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by Hammer002

[Wesquire]

I do know that Ben and the other podcast guys really dislike thinking about it in terms of "double tap". However, I do remember Ben saying that one of the most frustrating things about double taps is how well it works within 5 yards. SO, I'm guessing that it is more of a behavioral issue than a technical issue. IF having a relaxed sight picture on your follow up shot does not hurt your ability to hit As due to the distance, there's no reason to avoid it unless it makes it harder for you to be disciplined with sight picture on other targets.

[sfinney]

Sight picture = see what you need to see for each shot. Up close if seeing the gun pointed in the general direction of the A zone is all you need to break a shot, your visual input of seeing those cues is a still "sight picture". As distance increases you have to tighten up that picture till eventually you are seeing a well centered front sight blade framed by the rear sight notch. Everything else in between those extremes is still a sight picture, just varying degrees of attention.

[theWacoKid]

On 7/17/2017 at 10:09 PM, Wesquire said:

...then what I'm seeing within 7 yards is mostly just the outline of the gun being pointed at the A zone.

 

That is a level of "sight picture".  

[Wesquire]

Just now, theWacoKid said:

 

That is a level of "sight picture".  

 

Some people don't consider it a sight picture, and some people say that you need to always be able to track your sights up and down.

[Sliv2]

5 yards and in: basically the outline of the gun in the A zone.

~7 yards: see my green fiber somewhere in the A zone

 

They're sight pictures that don't particularly need the sights.

[theWacoKid]

1 hour ago, Wesquire said:

 

Some people don't consider it a sight picture, and some people say that you need to always be able to track your sights up and down.

 

'Some people' don't concern good USPSA shooters.  And that's great, they can consider it what they please and play semantics.  Doesn't change the fact that it is a type of sight picture for those pushing their skills.  

[Hammer002]

12 hours ago, Wesquire said:

 

Some people don't consider it a sight picture, and some people say that you need to always be able to track your sights up and down.

 

I think it depends on the distance.  Inside 5 yds=pretty much complete point shooting unless no shoots involved.  5 to 10, usually just looking for a front sight for the first shot and break the second not necessarily as a "double tap," but as a controlled pair basing the second shot on the practiced return of the recoil.  10+ wants to see the sights rise and fall.  25 or so I want the traditional perfect sight picture for each shot.  Comes down to distance. 

[SJan]

On 7/16/2017 at 3:39 PM, Wesquire said:

Experimenting at the range I decided to see what happens at 7 yards when I don't bother seeing a sight picture on follow up shots. I found that every shot stayed within a 5" circle. I've always been slow and I've always trained myself to get at least a blurry front sight picture, but is it okay to basically aim once and squeeze out two shots on close targets? If I'm hitting alphas I'm just not sure what the point would be to refine the sight picture.

 

sometimes I don't bother with a sight picture on the first shot, never mind the second shot... 

 

 

 

What are your splits while double tapping 2 A's at your point shooting distance?    5 yards ?

Run the Blake drill at that distance.  http://benstoeger.com/index.php/gallery/23-second-category/88-blake-drill