Recent DNROI Letter (Front Line)

[Fishstyx]

3 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

... But as people have said, if the ROs make it clear what the scoring procedure (and order) is going to be, and are consistent with it, you just aren't going to have too many of those problems. 

But that's not true in my limited experience. As I said earlier, I worked a stage where there was no excuse for prepasting. The bay was deep and narrow, we explained the front to back scoring procedure and did it every time, we tried to physically protect targets and even yelled at people in the process of prepasting. We had over 10 reshoots and two or three of them were VERY fishy. It's nearly impossible to conclude intent, it's always 'oh sorry' and the vast majority of ROs aren't going through the hassle of arguing a subjective call to the RM.

 

Frankly, I'm surprised by this childish 'well if I might get a penalty for pasting then I just won't do it.' Seriously?!? Resetting is not optional. That said, it's settled. The authorities have indicated this won't be done again. MDs must ensure there's plenty of time for a significant number of prepasting reshoots and unscurpulous competitors have effectively a blank check.  

[d_striker]

Perhaps the solution, as a few others have suggested, is to go to the Euro model and rotate through the squad having 2-3 people resetting the entire stage.  

 

Or increase everyone's match fee by $20 and pay a crew to reset.  

 

Personally, I'll gladly pay $20 to not have to reset.

[alma]

12 minutes ago, d_striker said:

Perhaps the solution, as a few others have suggested, is to go to the Euro model and rotate through the squad having 2-3 people resetting the entire stage.  

 

Or increase everyone's match fee by $20 and pay a crew to reset.  

 

Personally, I'll gladly pay $20 to not have to reset.

I would like to do either of these. 

I'm not lazy but the current culture that everyone has to go down range each time is literally a waste of time and energy. More effective to have dedicated assignments that rotate. 

[jester121]

11 minutes ago, d_striker said:

Personally, I'll gladly pay $20 to not have to reset.

 

Well my price to work as a stage resetter is $500 for a 2-day weekend (typical Section match in my example).

 

x2 resetters per stage,

 

Figure a 12-stage, 2-day match so that's an extra $12,000 in competitor fees we'd need,

 

/ 200 competitors,

 

Your match fee goes up $60, not $20.

 

And everyone has to agree do it, it's not optional for competitors. Yes, USPSA competitors, many of whom are the biggest cheapskates on the planet and complain about $25 match fees for 7 stages, no setup.

 

I'm not saying I'm pro or con, but let's be realistic if we're throwing around numbers.

 

[d_striker]

Just now, alma said:

I would like to do either of these. 

I'm not lazy but the current culture that everyone has to go down range each time is literally a waste of time and energy. More effective to have dedicated assignments that rotate. 

 

Agreed on it being a waste of time and being inefficient.

 

I'd prefer it go to having a hired crew to setup.  Far less chance of the shenanigans that everyone seems to be so concerned about in this thread.

[d_striker]

1 minute ago, jester121 said:

 

Well my price to work as a stage resetter is $500 for a 2-day weekend (typical Section match in my example).

 

x2 resetters per stage,

 

Figure a 12-stage, 2-day match so that's an extra $12,000 in competitor fees we'd need,

 

/ 200 competitors,

 

Your match fee goes up $60, not $20.

 

And everyone has to agree do it, it's not optional for competitors. Yes, USPSA competitors, many of whom are the biggest cheapskates on the planet and complain about $25 match fees for 7 stages, no setup.

 

I'm not saying I'm pro or con, but let's be realistic if we're throwing around numbers.

 

 

I'm sure we could find people to reset for less than $250 per day.  

 

My personal price to flip burgers at McDonalds would be $200/hr....But that just ain't gonna happen.

Edited July 17, 2017 by d_striker

[jester121]

Just now, d_striker said:

 

I'm sure we could find people to reset for less than $250 per day.  

 

[Thomas H]

3 hours ago, Fishstyx said:

But that's not true in my limited experience. As I said earlier, I worked a stage where there was no excuse for prepasting. The bay was deep and narrow, we explained the front to back scoring procedure and did it every time, we tried to physically protect targets and even yelled at people in the process of prepasting. We had over 10 reshoots and two or three of them were VERY fishy. It's nearly impossible to conclude intent, it's always 'oh sorry' and the vast majority of ROs aren't going through the hassle of arguing a subjective call to the RM.

 

Frankly, I'm surprised by this childish 'well if I might get a penalty for pasting then I just won't do it.' Seriously?!? Resetting is not optional. That said, it's settled. The authorities have indicated this won't be done again. MDs must ensure there's plenty of time for a significant number of prepasting reshoots and unscurpulous competitors have effectively a blank check.  

In the match that you are talking about, it makes me wonder what else was going on, really. 

 

Plenty of people here have a lot more experience than I do, so I can only say that in my limited experience as an RO and CRO working a minimum of two major matches (Level II and III) for the last 10 years, plus attending/shooting an average of 4-5 majors per year, I haven't seen that issue.  Prepasting once or twice in that entire time--yep, it happens.  Something at the level you mentioned, though?  Haven't seen it.  So it makes me wonder what else was going on.  (Alaos makes me wonder _where_ this occurred.)

 

As for this part:  "Frankly, I'm surprised by this childish 'well if I might get a penalty for pasting then I just won't do it.' Seriously?!? Resetting is not optional."

 

That isn't what people said.  What they said was that if the rule was a unilateral absolute penalty, then they wouldn't paste until they heard the "scoring is complete" phrase from the RO.  Which would mean a significantly longer time spent in resets, obviously.  If you don't think that is a reasonable choice if the match officials are going to hand out punitive penalties designed for someone deliberately interfering with a score as opposed to someone making a dumb mistake once, then we are going to have to agree to disagree.

 

It is certainly true that people were not saying they wouldn't paste, so being mad at them about it doesn't make much sense.

 

In addition: "That said, it's settled. The authorities have indicated this won't be done again. MDs must ensure there's plenty of time for a significant number of prepasting reshoots and unscurpulous competitors have effectively a blank check. "

 

It interests me that this is the meaning you got from the article in question, considering in no way, shape, or form is anyone being given a "blank check."  Rather the opposite---people who deliberately paste early will get in trouble if you can back it up, and people who make a simple mistake AREN'T going to get hammered by an MD who gave ROs a blank check to punish everyone as if they were deliberately cheating.

 

If you CAN'T back up your assertion that someone was deliberately pasting, then you shouldn't be assigning a penalty.

[davidb72]

39 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

If you CAN'T back up your assertion that someone was deliberately pasting, then you shouldn't be assigning a penalty.

Well, I don't think I could ever say for certain that someone was deliberately pre-pasting so yes - the cheaters effectively have a blank check or a carte blanche or whatever you want to call it.

 

 

[davidb72]

4 hours ago, alma said:

I would like to do either of these. 

I'm not lazy but the current culture that everyone has to go down range each time is literally a waste of time and energy. More effective to have dedicated assignments that rotate. 

Why not work it out with your squad amongst yourselves then? If I am the CRO I don't care how many people are downrange helping, just that there are sufficient people doing so.

Do you need some higher power to tell you to do it that way or can you just do it?

[d_striker]

5 minutes ago, davidb72 said:

Why not work it out with your squad amongst yourselves then? If I am the CRO I don't care how many people are downrange helping, just that there are sufficient people doing so.

Do you need some higher power to tell you to do it that way or can you just do it?

 

A lot of RO's flip out at majors if there are only 2-3 people resetting.

[Dutchman195]

To many for a multi quote here:
Handing out Penalties for premature pasting is pretty dumb. UNLESS, it is very clear it was done on purpose. My two blatant examples are guys wearing the same jersey or guys just straight telling someone they did it. I would probably loose my cool over getting a penalty like that, but in that same breath, go stand next to a target and when the dude with the timer rolls past and calls the score, put tape on it. Not hard. But sometimes even the RO's change up the direction that they score.

 

Someone said something about everyone pasting every time is a waste of energy. I disagree 80% of the time with this. If its a classifier with 4 targets or some speed shoot style thing. yea, you dont need everyone down there. Any other stage, the majority of people should be there, setting and painting steel, the activators normally take two people (one person setting, one person awkwardly standing there watching haha), plus if I see my friends trying to paste more than me I'm gonna go fight them to use all my pasters. 

 

I would agree if the squad is hitting on all cylinders, the next shooter is getting the make ready while they are still recording scores from the tablet to the paper and the last shooter is signing. This is also dependent on how big the stages are. That last bay at optics nationals this year where they picked the shooter up on a golf cart and drove him to the targets, yea that'll take longer for everyone else to walk to and paste. 

 

8.3.1.1 
I would like to see this enforced more. Plant one foot and move around with your other foot if you need to. The second your other foot comes off the ground. boom someone start yelling at that guy. On the make ready the guys that pull out there gun and run to the first position....come on, your not gonna shoot THAT much better because you practiced entering the position with a gun in your hand. 

[BritinUSA]

We don't need more than two people to tape a stage; If the scorekeeper is recording hits while the competitor is still shooting then it only requires one person to follow the scorekeeper and tape those targets. Once the ULASC is done then the other taper can follow the RO as they call out each target, it takes just a few seconds to tape a target, not much longer than it takes to actually call out the score.

 

I just don't see any reason for a bunch of people to grab some tape, walk down range and stand by a single target, it's that kind of action that leads to premature taping as people are standing close by an unattended target and so may paste by mistake or on purpose. If the taper is never more than a step or two behind the person calling out or recording the scores then I can't see how a target can be pasted when it is not supposed to be.

[alma]

I think it has been mentioned, but those taping guns are amazingly effective as well and a couple of guys with those in hand could make make short work of a stage. I just bought one and am kicking myself for having not done it years ago. Additional help for setting steel perhaps but in some matched the stage crews reset steel for consistency. 

[jester121]

On 7/17/2017 at 6:56 PM, BritinUSA said:

We don't need more than two people to tape a stage;

 

I say this depends entirely on the people -- there are a great many lollygaggers in this sport. (Including some of us during the COF, but that's another problem entirely). 

[JAFO]

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 6:56 PM, BritinUSA said:

We don't need more than two people to tape a stage; If the scorekeeper is recording hits while the competitor is still shooting then it only requires one person to follow the scorekeeper and tape those targets. Once the ULASC is done then the other taper can follow the RO as they call out each target, it takes just a few seconds to tape a target, not much longer than it takes to actually call out the score.

 

I just don't see any reason for a bunch of people to grab some tape, walk down range and stand by a single target, it's that kind of action that leads to premature taping as people are standing close by an unattended target and so may paste by mistake or on purpose. If the taper is never more than a step or two behind the person calling out or recording the scores then I can't see how a target can be pasted when it is not supposed to be.

 

I would have to disagree with this.  Stages are often setup with various target arrays.  If you have 4 people taping and they each go to an array, then your taping is complete soon after the last target is scored.  If you have one person taping anything more than a medium COF on a decent sized bay, you will be done scoring well before that person can be done taping.  Especially if it's a stage with targets ranging in distance from 3 yards to 30 yards from the front of the bay.  Add in high temperatures in the summer time (especially where I am), and it's definitely a case of many hands make light work for resetting.

[mosher]

On 7/17/2017 at 11:31 AM, Fishstyx said:

But that's not true in my limited experience. As I said earlier, I worked a stage where there was no excuse for prepasting. The bay was deep and narrow, we explained the front to back scoring procedure and did it every time, we tried to physically protect targets and even yelled at people in the process of prepasting. We had over 10 reshoots and two or three of them were VERY fishy. It's nearly impossible to conclude intent, it's always 'oh sorry' and the vast majority of ROs aren't going through the hassle of arguing a subjective call to the RM.

 

Frankly, I'm surprised by this childish 'well if I might get a penalty for pasting then I just won't do it.' Seriously?!? Resetting is not optional. That said, it's settled. The authorities have indicated this won't be done again. MDs must ensure there's plenty of time for a significant number of prepasting reshoots and unscurpulous competitors have effectively a blank check.  

 

If you think someone is purposefully pre-pasting to bail a buddy out of a bad run, DQ them for cheating/unsportsmanlike conduct.  Let the RM sort it out from there.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gary Stevens]

8 hours ago, mosher said:

 

If you think someone is purposefully pre-pasting to bail a buddy out of a bad run, DQ them for cheating/unsportsmanlike conduct.  Let the RM sort it out from there.

 

 

 

 

 

There is one flaw in your logic. It is up to the RO who issues the DQ to make the case for the DQ. It is not up to the RM to testify in an arbitration proceeding, that would be up to the RO that issued the DQ.

 

We don't DQ people for what we think they did, only what we know they did.

Edited July 22, 2017 by Gary Stevens

[davidb72]

1 hour ago, Gary Stevens said:

There is one flaw in your logic. It is up to the RO who issues the DQ make the case for the DQ. It is not up to the RM to testify in an arbitration proceeding, that would be up to the RO that issued the DQ.

 

We don't DQ people for what we think they did, only what we know they did.

And as a CRO I have suspected this once or twice but never felt like I could make a case that it was done for certain.

"PASTE EM UP! RE-SHOOT"

[Shadyscott999]

On 7/8/2017 at 9:41 PM, davidb72 said:

I hope so - it wasn't done that way to hurt anyone's feelings, just to try and run an efficient match.

 

On 7/8/2017 at 9:42 PM, alma said:

Understood. Thanks again for working the match. 

 

Have you two made up?  

 

[davidb72]

On 7/21/2017 at 9:42 PM, Shadyscott999 said:

 

 

Have you two made up?  

 

We had a very nice conversation during lunch at the match and Alma helped me take care of some UNIVERSE business as well so at least on my end I would say yes.

[alma]

37 minutes ago, davidb72 said:

We had a very nice conversation during lunch at the match and Alma helped me take care of some UNIVERSE business as well so at least on my end I would say yes.

It was nice finally meeting in person. Still not a fan of Facebook shenanigans,  but I'd squad with him anytime. 

[motosapiens]

On 7/20/2017 at 4:21 PM, JAFO said:

 

I would have to disagree with this.  Stages are often setup with various target arrays.  If you have 4 people taping and they each go to an array, then your taping is complete soon after the last target is scored.  If you have one person taping anything more than a medium COF on a decent sized bay, you will be done scoring well before that person can be done taping.  Especially if it's a stage with targets ranging in distance from 3 yards to 30 yards from the front of the bay.  Add in high temperatures in the summer time (especially where I am), and it's definitely a case of many hands make light work for resetting.

 

high temps are an even better reason to have 2 or 3 people resetting instead of everyone. You only have to do it 2-3 times, and then you can rest in the shade.