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dauntedfuture

3 gun rule; shooting over a prop, now what

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At a recent 3G match a shooter shoots over the top of two stacked plastic barrels.  Barrel was 5-8 ft away.  Shooter now, from same position shoots clay that is now visible.  I don't think it was intentional

 

What penalty is there for shooting over a prop?

- no, procedural???

 

Can the shooter engage now visible clay?

- no shooter can't modify cof; procedural for shooting prop.  No credit for a hit on clay from same position. 

 

Shooter accidentally shoots over prop, now moves to another position and engages clay where it would have been visible at the new, 2nd position?

- Procedural for shooting over prop, shot at clay from 2nd position ok. 

 

Could a shooter shoot over a prop and then engage a now visible target intentionally?

- I would not think so and that would be unsportsmanlike conduct; match DQ. 

 

Comments?  

 

 

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by shooting over do you mean he knocked over the barrels with one(or more) shots then engaged a target that was previously hidden?

 

if this is what you mean then under USPSA MG Rules I would call a Range Equipment Failure and order a reshoot. Remember though that most matches are run under rules other than USPSA MG and many are just in the head of the Match Director so you would need to check with the applicable rules source for the match in question.

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MAC702   

I think Mike addressed every one of my thoughts.  I don't understand your setup to the question.  What changes did the shooter cause to the prop?  And if unintentional, should be range equipment failure and a reshoot, IF the match is sanctioned by USPSA.  I know nothing about 3GN rules

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gerritm   

We shoot a lot of Outlaw type 3-gun matches and no different than if the wind blew over the barrel or a target stand as long as it was not intentional it would be a re-shoot. Kind of tough to determine if he did it on purpose unless he shot it dead center.

 

gerritm

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MAC702   

After being able to think about the context for a while, I'm thinking his word choice should be taken to be that he shot the top of the two barrels, knocking it over.

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He shot the prop over, a plastic barrel with a shotgun.  One was stacked on the other.  Now a target was exposed that otherwise was not.  

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wgj3   

Intentionally shooting up props is generally frowned upon...

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If part of a target was visible behind the barrels to a tall shooter and the course description was "as visible" or "in shooting area" and the shooter was in the correct shooting area, I would say no foul for "that" target.  If knocking the barrel over exposed a non-visible target that was engaged after the partially visible target then i would have stopped the shooter for Range Equipment Failure.

 

If barrels are going to be used as vision barriers anywhere a shotgun is going to be used they should firmly staked down so they don't move if accidentally or purposely shot.

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How do you stake down a barrel on top of another barrel?   

 

- understand range equipment failure and reshoot would be the best call.  

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The shooter had to really really really stretch to take the shot from where he did.  While I'm not sure it was intentional or not, there was not really "a good shot" from that position or anything close to it.  

 

I appreciate the call.  

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gerritm   

The way I have seen plastic barrels "staked" down is to take a long wooden/steel stake, drive 2-3 into the ground around the bottom barrel run screws threw it and then take several stakes and split  half of the stake between the lower and upper barrel in a couple of places and run screws threw the wood into the barrel. It gets pretty windy here. Use this for dump barrels also.

 

gerritm

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OP you said "shoots over a barrel" which is pretty vague. Everyone here (myself included) thought you were saying that he was shooting ABOVE the barrel (I assumed he was really tall).  You should probably have said something like "shooter knocked over a barrel."  I think everyone has figured out your question though.

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3 hours ago, dauntedfuture said:

How do you stake down a barrel on top of another barrel?   

 

- understand range equipment failure and reshoot would be the best call.  

 

That seems to make the most sense....   I mean if the wind blew a wall down during a course of fire and a whole array is now visible from where it wasn't before... so the shooter shoots it, why would the shooter be penalized or reap the benefit? The course of fire was changed.  If the shooter accidentally shot a stack of barrels over because some of his shot hit while trying to get a tight angle on a visible target around the barrel, its pretty much the same.  Yea the person who designed the stage (unless specifically calling that shot a forbidden action) is at fault.  Toss the stage, or fix it.  Cut open the side of the bottom barrel, toss a couple sand bags down in it, then use target sticks and wood screws to connect the top barrel to the bottom, I've seen it done plenty.

 

By all common sense and practicality, circumstances would dictate thats a range equipment malfunction.  Most necks of the woods, a range equipment malfunction is a mandatory reshoot.

 

Now, benefit of the doubt always favoring the shooter, if he shot them down on purpose to try to cheat the stage, and is stupid enough to persistantly argue the point wanting the score, all things considered, DQ his stage score, or walk him (DQ) from the whole match...  Unsportsmanlike conduct...  

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bret   
On 3/30/2017 at 7:14 AM, dauntedfuture said:

How do you stake down a barrel on top of another barrel?   

 

- understand range equipment failure and reshoot would be the best call.  

you screw the top barrel to the bottom barrel.

 

you nail the bottom barrel to the ground with large spikes.

 

what rule in uspsa multigun would it be a ref?

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bret   
On 3/30/2017 at 11:29 AM, lee blackman said:

 

That seems to make the most sense....   I mean if the wind blew a wall down during a course of fire and a whole array is now visible from where it wasn't before... so the shooter shoots it, why would the shooter be penalized or reap the benefit? The course of fire was changed.  If the shooter accidentally shot a stack of barrels over because some of his shot hit while trying to get a tight angle on a visible target around the barrel, its pretty much the same.  Yea the person who designed the stage (unless specifically calling that shot a forbidden action) is at fault.  Toss the stage, or fix it.  Cut open the side of the bottom barrel, toss a couple sand bags down in it, then use target sticks and wood screws to connect the top barrel to the bottom, I've seen it done plenty.

 

By all common sense and practicality, circumstances would dictate thats a range equipment malfunction.  Most necks of the woods, a range equipment malfunction is a mandatory reshoot.

 

Now, benefit of the doubt always favoring the shooter, if he shot them down on purpose to try to cheat the stage, and is stupid enough to persistantly argue the point wanting the score, all things considered, DQ his stage score, or walk him (DQ) from the whole match...  Unsportsmanlike conduct...  

in uspsa multigun what rules would be applicable?

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DKorn   
On 4/24/2017 at 10:41 PM, bret said:

in uspsa multigun what rules would be applicable?

 

4.5.1? 

 

"Range equipment failure includes, but is not limited to ... failure of props such as openings, ports, and barricades."

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