.38 "mid" Colt

[Whistler]

This is how I did it with .38 SC from .38 Special brass:

[Tom E]

I did much the same but used the se-up Forster has that works in a drill press. Brass trimmed to .900. That's the longest case length the extractor will pull all the way out of the chambers.

[Guest]

Mitch, thanks for posting your method for making the .38 Middling cases. If I had a small cut-off saw i might try it that way.

I've done a few and used a cheap-o lee .38 super cutter/mandrel set up chucked up in a drill press, and then used a .38 special shell holder in a machine vise on the drill press table. Works a lot like Whistler's vid with the Forster, except it's vertical. I'll probably end up doing about 1000 after I figure out which brass my moonclips work with.

Also need to do some load development and will probably try using components I have on hand - 135/150/160 grain lead bullets pushed by WW 452AA (now discontinued, but similar to WST). Not sure if this combo will work out, but since I have the stuff I want to see if I can make use of it here. 452AA is works great in .38 super for steel challenge loads, just not sure how it will work with heavier bullets in a revolver at 130pf.

A curious side note - shot a match last weekend and picked up my .38 super brass after shooting. Got home and was sorting it out and found about 5-6 pieces of .38 Mid. Apparently a revo shooter ahead of my squad must have been going "moonclip-less" (at least on the start) and dumping his empties on the grass.

[RevolverJockey]

That mini chop saw I have came from Harbor Freight. It was about $35 if anyone is interested.

Lee

[GOF]

I'm running LC brass (not much different than cut down .38 Spl) with a 158 LRN, 3.3 grains Clays, and it runs an average of 780 fps from a 6-inch GP-100 (ICORE). Recoil is nothing! ... less than the 3.6 Clays/38 SPL case load I use for IDPA in a 4 inch GP-100.

If you're shooting a .357 gun, my guess is you could make 820 fps at 3.6 - 3.7... which is below .357 load max.

Is it the Titegroup? That stuff, in my experience, is pretty harsh. Clays is noticeably softer, and cleaner, and you don't burn your hand when you grab an open cylinder after a long COF.

I did cut some .38 Spl down to LC length... same load... couldn't tell the difference. Except, for all the time and effort I had to spend cutting 38 down on a RCBS hand trimmer. I said the heck with that and just ordered another 1,000 LC cases.

[ede]

That mini chop saw I have came from Harbor Freight. It was about $35 if anyone is interested.

Lee

I found it before you posted where it came from and found it. I was going to go with .38 Mid and sue drill moter driven case trimmer but for less than 40$ I'm stopping at the local Harbor Freight and getting a cut off saw.

[RevolverJockey]

That mini chop saw I have came from Harbor Freight. It was about $35 if anyone is interested.

Lee

I found it before you posted where it came from and found it. I was going to go with .38 Mid and sue drill moter driven case trimmer but for less than 40$ I'm stopping at the local Harbor Freight and getting a cut off saw.

If they have one a cheap "W" drill or a 3/8" with a little careful dremel work does the trick. Even if you just have a chunk of maple or oak. I will finish matching the metal brass holder today and should have some pictures. I have even been thinking if wanted to cut off rimless brass you could hold them with a single stage shell holder and make pretty quick work of it.

Lee

[RevolverJockey]

[Shadowrider]

So what keeps the case from spinning in the block?

[RevolverJockey]

So what keeps the case from spinning in the block?

I just put my finger to against the brass. It cuts it off in like a 1/4 second. They don't spin at all.

Lee

Edited September 15, 2013 by Mitch_Rapp.45

[Shadowrider]

So what keeps the case from spinning in the block?

I just put my finger to against the brass. It cuts it off in like a 1/4 second. That don't spin at all.

Lee

[NOSAJ19]

I've found 38 short colts in a moonclipped gun to be the fastest & most reliable relaod, without any noticable lack of accuracey, in a S&W 627 38/357.

For a Classic gun using speed loaders, 38 long colt would be the minimum length, for speed & reliability, in a S&W 686 38/357.

I load both my short colts & long colts on a Dillon 550.

Stage #1 38/357 die.

Stage #2 9mm powder funnel.

Stage #3 9mm die.

Stage #4 9mm die crimped hard.

[Tom E]

I know this is subjective, but as I work up this load in .38 mid - it seems like at about 110pf in .38 with a 158gr bullets, the recoil appears to surpass the felt recoil of my 610 with 200gr .40 SW rounds at about 128pf.

I found the same thing. Same bullet, same velocity, same powder (but not same amount), "short case" vs 38 special, the "short case" round had sharper recoil. Try a slower powder. I think we're just seeing the results of a different pressure curve. By shortening the case and reducing the effective volume we're creating a higher pressure round.

[NOSAJ19]

I load a 135 LRN (lead round nose) in all my 38 revolver loads with ADI's AP50. Very happy.

[RevolverJockey]

I know this is subjective, but as I work up this load in .38 mid - it seems like at about 110pf in .38 with a 158gr bullets, the recoil appears to surpass the felt recoil of my 610 with 200gr .40 SW rounds at about 128pf.

I found the same thing. Same bullet, same velocity, same powder (but not same amount), "short case" vs 38 special, the "short case" round had sharper recoil. Try a slower powder. I think we're just seeing the results of a different pressure curve. By shortening the case and reducing the effective volume we're creating a higher pressure round.

I was curious if I could make PF with WST in a short load. Anyone use that powder? I have great results in .40 minor with it.

Lee

[Shadowrider]

I know this is subjective, but as I work up this load in .38 mid - it seems like at about 110pf in .38 with a 158gr bullets, the recoil appears to surpass the felt recoil of my 610 with 200gr .40 SW rounds at about 128pf.

I found the same thing. Same bullet, same velocity, same powder (but not same amount), "short case" vs 38 special, the "short case" round had sharper recoil. Try a slower powder. I think we're just seeing the results of a different pressure curve. By shortening the case and reducing the effective volume we're creating a higher pressure round.

I was curious if I could make PF with WST in a short load. Anyone use that powder? I have great results in .40 minor with it.

Lee

I sure hope so, that's what I'm planning on using since I have almost 16lbs of it. It does work wonderfully in 9mm 147 lead loads at 133PF so I'm hopeful that it will run a 160 RN out of a revolver.

[RevolverJockey]

I know this is subjective, but as I work up this load in .38 mid - it seems like at about 110pf in .38 with a 158gr bullets, the recoil appears to surpass the felt recoil of my 610 with 200gr .40 SW rounds at about 128pf.

I found the same thing. Same bullet, same velocity, same powder (but not same amount), "short case" vs 38 special, the "short case" round had sharper recoil. Try a slower powder. I think we're just seeing the results of a different pressure curve. By shortening the case and reducing the effective volume we're creating a higher pressure round.

I was curious if I could make PF with WST in a short load. Anyone use that powder? I have great results in .40 minor with it.

Lee

I sure hope so, that's what I'm planning on using since I have almost 16lbs of it. It does work wonderfully in 9mm 147 lead loads at 133PF so I'm hopeful that it will run a 160 RN out of a revolver.

I use it for 200gr .40 so if it makes minor with lighter and heavier, it should work with a 158.

Lee

[revoman]

Rogers Better Bullets makes a 150 lead round nose. I use in my 38 short colt. You should be able to use it and the same load for your 147 9mm load and give you the same PF.

www.rogersbetterbullets.com and it is the 38 super 150gr RN sized .357. Great bullet and they are great to order from.

[mikeAZ]

The "saw".....& .900 cases

I did it a little simpler (for me) as I don't have the "jig" making skills required...I used the harbor freight saw BUT I cut a 3/8" deep hex sock (must be hex&deep) to 3/4" overall with a hacksaw. This gave a good fit for the brass and it fits the slot in the saw locking base pretty good. It will take a little adjustment to get the overall length you want (.906 works for me). I use a mid-length screwdriver to keep a slight amount of pressure on the case bottom when cutting the case with my left hand and then "slap" the cut case from the socket with the same screwdriver with my right hand.. This is WAY faster than my RCBS trimmer and the cuts are square enough for most people (I don't trim any further, just de-burr). total cost was about $32.00 with a free flashlight. MAKE sure to use proper eye protection and some may wish to shut the "saw" off between cuts?.....Proceed at your own risk.... Mike

[pskys2]

I know this is subjective, but as I work up this load in .38 mid - it seems like at about 110pf in .38 with a 158gr bullets, the recoil appears to surpass the felt recoil of my 610 with 200gr .40 SW rounds at about 128pf.

I found the same thing. Same bullet, same velocity, same powder (but not same amount), "short case" vs 38 special, the "short case" round had sharper recoil. Try a slower powder. I think we're just seeing the results of a different pressure curve. By shortening the case and reducing the effective volume we're creating a higher pressure round.

I was curious if I could make PF with WST in a short load. Anyone use that powder? I have great results in .40 minor with it.

Lee

I sure hope so, that's what I'm planning on using since I have almost 16lbs of it. It does work wonderfully in 9mm 147 lead loads at 133PF so I'm hopeful that it will run a 160 RN out of a revolver.

I played with WST and Ramshot Competition for several weeks and didn't like either. They will make Minor, but using both 158 RN Berry's and 160 RN Bayou Bullets once the PF dropped under 135, both powders started leaving granules of unburnt powder and the velocities dropped off and became very erratic. I just couldn't get a load that would make a 133 PF, or less even, that did not have those issues. Also WST was inverse temp sensitive. It lost velocity as it got hotter.

Thought I had it settled and took it to the Ankenny, IA ICORE match in August at 90++degrees and had several reloads get jammed up with unburnt powder with WST. Won't go there again.

Clays works well with my OLD Dillon Powder Measure, the one without the anti-double charge apparatus, at least down to about 2.7 grains.

Titegroup is probably the best though, as it feeds thru any powder measure and doesn't leave any granules. It's accurate and consistent, just have to put up with a bit hotter barrel.

[seanc]

I know this is subjective, but as I work up this load in .38 mid - it seems like at about 110pf in .38 with a 158gr bullets, the recoil appears to surpass the felt recoil of my 610 with 200gr .40 SW rounds at about 128pf.

I found the same thing. Same bullet, same velocity, same powder (but not same amount), "short case" vs 38 special, the "short case" round had sharper recoil. Try a slower powder. I think we're just seeing the results of a different pressure curve. By shortening the case and reducing the effective volume we're creating a higher pressure round.

I was curious if I could make PF with WST in a short load. Anyone use that powder? I have great results in .40 minor with it.

Lee

I sure hope so, that's what I'm planning on using since I have almost 16lbs of it. It does work wonderfully in 9mm 147 lead loads at 133PF so I'm hopeful that it will run a 160 RN out of a revolver.

I played with WST and Ramshot Competition for several weeks and didn't like either. They will make Minor, but using both 158 RN Berry's and 160 RN Bayou Bullets once the PF dropped under 135, both powders started leaving granules of unburnt powder and the velocities dropped off and became very erratic. I just couldn't get a load that would make a 133 PF, or less even, that did not have those issues. Also WST was inverse temp sensitive. It lost velocity as it got hotter.

Thought I had it settled and took it to the Ankenny, IA ICORE match in August at 90++degrees and had several reloads get jammed up with unburnt powder with WST. Won't go there again.

Clays works well with my OLD Dillon Powder Measure, the one without the anti-double charge apparatus, at least down to about 2.7 grains.

Titegroup is probably the best though, as it feeds thru any powder measure and doesn't leave any granules. It's accurate and consistent, just have to put up with a bit hotter barrel.

I love tg to, very consistent and most accurate loads I have ever tested, but the gun just gets to insanely hot on longer field courses. I do the Jerry style reload and seared a finger on the barrel, that ended my tg in revolver use..

[Akkid17]

I use WST in my 45 and 38 mid loads and its worked out pretty well for me this far. I also use a lighter bullet than most of the people that have posted, 135 gr RN from bayou, at 130 PF from my 327 its been really nice just a little kick and excellent accuracy. I haven't had any issues with the granules building up in either load but I put 4.0-4.2 gr depending on season. I have been really happy with it especially since it doesn't leave those little black flakes on my arms like bullseye. I'd like to switch over to n310 bit 50$ a pound and availability kind of stopped that

[pskys2]

I thought of using a lighter bullet, just never got around to it.

I feel your pain with the Titegroup being too hot. I also use the same reload style. In a .45 it's a bear, in my .44, when I used it for matches it didn't seem as bad. Haven't used it enough in the 38 though, but what I did use didn't seem to have quite the heat issues as the 45. I surmise the pressures are lower on the other 2 and that's what's causing the heat in the .45.

[RevolverJockey]

I am going to abandon the idea for a while. Having some funding issues picking up a 627 and there is no point working up loads until I have the revolver in hand. I have about 60,000 rounds through my 610 using .40 minor and don't have any problems with powder fouling or leading. I may very well start there when I pick the torch up again.

Lee

[RevolverJockey]

For those who shoot short colt, are a lot of you making uspsa minor to just loads for ICORE? I am going to be loading 158gr bullets and still trying to decide between Specials and Mids. I will be using Starline brass or Fed/RP brass for the two clips I have picked out. I will be holding out for a 5".