180 Rule

[Mark R]

OK folks…I need some help here. I did some searching, but can’t find anything related to my issue.

Background: My range is located in an old rock quarry and has high rock wall sides on 3 sides. The range floor is within these 3 walls and large enough to put up 3 stages at let’s say 9 o’clock, 12 o’clock, and 3 o’clock…see Stage 3 pic. The range floor has no berms to divide stages individually.

This past weekend I set up stage 3 (3 o’clock) with an intended backstop or median at the 12 o’clock from the start position with all targets on the right side of the fault lines (no targets on left). My intent (yes, I know intent don’t work in WSB) was to have 2 targets and 4 steel engaged from shooting area A, and remaining targets from area B (see stage WSB).

Issue: A couple of high classification shooters (GM-B ) were performing the walk-through before match start and I noticed them gaming the stage to be able to immediately move into Area B after the start signal and engage all targets that were to be shot from area A, from a single location in area B. I said they would be breaking the 180 since they would be shooting backwards from the start position. They replied that the 180 line can move or roam during the course of fire and that the 3 o'clock and 12 o'clock backstops were the 180.

Rule 10.5.2 states…If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

And Rule 3.2.1 does not state WSB requires where 180(or median/+-90) is placed.

Yes I know it’s PPP on my part, but with limited range capability, I attempted to come up with a fun and safe stage, but shooters decided the 180 moves. As a result, before the match started I put up a bunch of no-shoots to prevent them from shooting all targets from a single position in area B .

My questions are/how would you handle this:

1) Can the 180 move/roam during a COF? (I can't find any rule stating yes or no)

2) Should the WSB define the 180 in this case? Is the WSB defined enough?

3) Is the 180 parallel to the shoulders at the start position, considering you are facing downrange?

Thanks in advance!

[toddje]

The shooters you mention are probably technically "rule-book" correct but the rule book is ALWAYS subject to SAFETY. Folks seem to want to push this lately, I'd say all the Match Directors, Range Officers and organizers (USPSA, IDPA) need to push right back.

Just my humble opinion, but I'd go directly to rule 10.3.1 or 10.6. Simply point out that what they're suggesting is unsafe and clearly not something your range can accommodate.

[spanky]

IMO the 180 should be determined based on stage layout. I would think it would be natural based on your diagram that the 180 be parallel with the rear berm. However, I could see a case where if the berm is not actually a U shaped berm where the 180 might go along with the side berm. You could shoot it all from Area B if the latter were the case but certainly not the former. However, I can't see, nor have I ever heard, nor can I even fathom having BOTH berms be the 180. This needs a common sense cite, not a rules cite.

Edited April 11, 2011 by spanky

[Corey]

If you cant use the book rule of 90* off the median intercept of the back stop, then you need to lay it out in the WSB. ive seen stages at various matches that are tucked into corners of bays, etc. In those cases, the WSB layed out that the 180 for that stage was parallel to the back line of the shooting area (it was a 45* angle to the true center backstop of the bay). The 180, if not blatantly obvious from looking at the COF in the bay, needs to be layed out in writing.

[Joe4d]

really it shouldnt be an issue, moving the shooting areas back (towards bay 1) a couple feet would have put all the targets within a single 180 degree arc. I just dont like the, For this target this is the 180, for that target this is the 180. The rules use median backstop in a singular form, meaning there is and should only be a single median, and that median has two 90 degree arcs. Thats it, I have seen this "floating 180" thing used before in 2 sided or three sided bays, but I dont feel the rules support it. You could simply put in the WSB and put up a colored pole that defines the left and right limit but it would be the same left and right for the entire COF. SO for the first part I just say bad stage design.

If shooters are following the rule book and it's unsafe then Your stage is broke.

Nothing to do with pushing or pushing back fix the stage.

Sometimes things happen and you get stuck with a illegal stage, no biggy acknowledge it is technically inncorect, you'll do better next time, but tell the shooters ,"This is the way you have to shoot the stage, ask he who complains most to show up early next time with rulebook in hand and build a stage or two. Ever notice the guys that complain loudest about an illegal stage are the ones that show up at the last minute ?

You cant be a MD and allow shooters to decide things like that, If your stages occasionally mess up the rules, and you explain the Oops most shooters wont care. as long as it is an exception to what you do on most matches.

[aztecdriver]

I've seen bays that go in and back (kinda like an L) define the 180 for one part of the course, and another for the rest of the course, and I've seen that at a Level II match.

Cut the B line you have on that picture so that the back berm is the one with the three laying down targets, and go with that. No need to have a roaming 180 - that's asking trouble. When does it change? Who determines that - who's going to prove when it was broken?

I'm assuming you weren't running stage 2 at the same time as stage 3. Define which berm is THE berm and stick to it. Just because a single bay can handle stages like this doesn't mean it's freefire.

[bbbean]

If they're shooting backwards from B, aren't you running an increased risk of ricochets, splatter, or an AD hitting the parking area/safe area/covered tables?

Given that you're a level 1 match, you could simply invoke 1.1.5.1, or you could declare a forbidden action per 2.3.1.1 para a.

BB

eta: a few barrels or walls could also force shooters to engage the first targets and steel from A.

Edited April 11, 2011 by bbbean

[Poppa Bear]

The 180 does not roam!! You either determine that the side berm becomes the backstop for this COF and base the 180 on that or you base the 180 off the back berm. You cannot base it off both during the same COF.

One way to look at this is having a 360 bay where any shot will impact the berm. The primary backstop is always where the 180 is based off of.

[aztecdriver]

The 180 does not roam!! You either determine that the side berm becomes the backstop for this COF and base the 180 on that or you base the 180 off the back berm. You cannot base it off both during the same COF.

Please quote a rule for this - I have seen this defined at a State Match on an L-shaped bay a couple years ago.

[toddje]

If shooters are following the rule book and it's unsafe then Your stage is broke.

This does not mean shooters are allowed to be unsafe, though. And if they're "gaming" in advance, that means there is premeditation to perform an unsafe act...

You cant be a MD and allow shooters to decide things like that, If your stages occasionally mess up the rules, and you explain the Oops most shooters wont care. as long as it is an exception to what you do on most matches.

OK - so I understand where you're coming from, but I believe that a person with a gun ALWAYS own their muzzle direction (keeping it safe) and they own their bullets until they're firmly lodged in the side of the berm/backstop.

On my "just me talking" soapbox again: If this was a stage that 'pushed the limits' of this particular range, it should have been redesigned, but ultimately the choice to "game" a stage vs. shoot it correctly or not shoot at all if they can't do so safely is still the shooter's. MD's surely can't be held to a standard to make sure that EVERY conceivable unsafe practice is designed out of the stage in the WSB.

[Graham Smith]

I cannot imagine how they could justify doing something like that within the rules. But it's very difficult to tell from the sketch what the dimensions are and how things are laid out - in particular is the area to the right a deep enough pocket for this to be safe? If so, then just reorient your start line so that the 180 is parallel to that wall and put up a couple no-shoots or a barrier so they can't shoot those targets from anyplace except from the start.

I'm going to be interested to see what some others with more knowledge than I say about this roaming 180 business. Never heard of it myself.

[Mark R]

Thanks a bunch guys so far for your comments and suggestions. All points well taken and understood.

That stage area on the right is where we usually shoot into the right most berm with the median being the right berm. So normally the 180 is pointing 3 o'clock position. Since we only run 2 squads and squad 2 was on stage 1 and 2 on another part of our range, I elected to create the stage as shown with 180 median at the 12 o'clock position...I just didn't write it in the WSB, thinking most, if not all shooters, would use the beginning start position as the 180 line parallel to the shoulders...that was until gaming started.

So my questions of "does the 180 move/roam?" I understand it as 'NO'. Poor design?...maybe. Bad WSB?...possibly.

Still up for comments and suggestions. I appreciate the help and I'm learning from the ordeal.

Edited to add: FWIW...The shooters mentioned previously all shot the stage as designed from Area A, but only after a minor discussion. Just caught me off guard.

Edited April 11, 2011 by Mark R

[Coach]

What rule supports a roaming 180? The 180 should be establish and it should be consistent and the same for the entire stage. Just because something has been done does not make it right.

[mactiger]

No such thing as a roaming 180, and if some state match or other called it that, they were wrong.

The 180 can be shifted to be parallel to the back of the course of fire, especially if the stage is set into the corner and designed to be shot "diagonally", but just because you have a corner there doesn't mean it moves. The way that stage is laid out, the 180 is parallel to the backstop.

Troy

[Joe4d]

USPSA is a game, people are supposed to game it, thats what you do in games, gaming the stage IS shooting it correctly. You keep using the word game like it's a dirty word.

Yes the shooter is responsible for his actions and should hold fire regardless if it isnt safe, but a MD is responsible for creating legal safe stages.

10.5.2 is the rule to quote, The entire rule uses singular nouns, "THE MEDIAN" "THE BACKSTOP" the rule doesnt say, "the medianS or the backstopS"

[Gary Johnson]

Your gamers are correct. By placing targets along two berms you have created a stage with two backstops.

For the sake of discussion let's say 'up' in your diagram is North and the bay opens to the South. Under 10.5.2 a competitor can engage targets anywhere from due West (90 degrees from the North backstop) to due South (90 degrees from the East backstop). This isn't a problem so long as the berms reach far enough. It's fairly common at major matches. If the berms don't cover the full 270 then you have a problem.

You could use the level 1 exemption but that is asking for trouble when you consider you are depending on competitors to remember which target/position combinations to avoid. You might be covered under the rules but still have a potentially unsafe condition.

The best way to approach this is to stop thinking in terms of '180' lines and concentrate on target presentation. Use walls, no-shoots, and props to make sure no target is visible from an unsafe direction.

In your example, place vision barriers around the first paper target and plate array to make sure they can only be seen from area 'A'. That would eliminate any issues from area 'B'. It looks like you did this with the paper behind the stacked barrels. You should do the same for everything along the side berm.

[Mark R]

More of the comments well taken.

If shot like designed with 180 at the 12 o'clock berm, then shooters would need to shoot T1, T2 and steel from area A to not incur a 180 DQ. All shooters ended up doing this...but before match started, folks looking at shooting it from area B with 180 moving to the 3 o'clock position...and this may have put a safety concern into the scenario. My concern was where to place the other competitors, score keepers, spectators. 360 circle leaves 180 after you use 180 for COF, then if 180 moves or roams, then you loose another 90 degrees, leaving 90 degrees for all people to be in for safe shooting. I didn't prefer that and I don't think I should be satisfied...just looking for ways to prevent it in the future.

What I have discovered is poor stage design...needed a wall to prevent the problem. Also need to state the 180 in a non-standard COF. Both would have fixed my dilemma.

If anyone else still has comments, feel free to continue...I'm listening and learning.

[Rotwang]

Your gamers are correct. By placing targets along two berms you have created a stage with two backstops.

For the sake of discussion let's say 'up' in your diagram is North and the bay opens to the South. Under 10.5.2 a competitor can engage targets anywhere from due West (90 degrees from the North backstop) to due South (90 degrees from the East backstop). This isn't a problem so long as the berms reach far enough. It's fairly common at major matches. If the berms don't cover the full 270 then you have a problem.

All I see are some targets spread out along the side berm and the back berm. So you can shoot to the right while moving toward the back of the stage and taking the back targets.

By your reasoning any 3 sided bay with targets along the sidewalls becomes a bay with three back berms and you end up being able to shoot anywahere in the 360 degrees by facing each sidewall. And that includes shooting out the open end of the bay.

[colt]

When I set something up that could cause a problem I will hide the target so you only see them in shooting area I want them shot from for safety reasons.

Brent

[kevin c]

Where are the rest of the shooters when the stage starts? Where are the bullets going relative to them? Any bullet in a well designed stage should be at best travelling away and at worst moving no closer than parallel to the spectators, and certainly not angled towards the squad (as defined by the 180); the spectators are always "behind the shooter/gun". To be safe at the start and be behind a shooter taking shooting area "A" targets from shooting area "B", the rest of the squad would have to be well off the stage to the left near stage 1, or start behind the shooter and run uprange with him to his left. Does not seem safe.

We have a bay that allows bullet impacts on one side and downrange. The 180 is always based on the the downrange berm, otherwise we'd have people "in front of the shooter/gun".

Mac said it - the 180 is defined and does not change in the COF. The only possible exception I can imagine would be something like a shoot house with inpenetrable walls, where the COF has complete bullet containment and everybody besides the competitor and RO's are outside.

[Mark R]

All the shooters remained in the lower left quadrant of the stage/range area....which was the last 90 degree area of a given circle. Not good in my book...hence the thread.

So not to get off thread...questions again are:

1) Can the 180 move/roam during a COF? (I can't find any rule stating yes or no)

2) Should the WSB define the 180 in this case?

3) Is the 180 parallel to the shoulders at the start position, considering you are facing downrange?

Edited April 12, 2011 by Mark R

[kevin c]

Troy answered the first question in post #14. He is way up there in the NROI food chain, so his opinion carries weight. He says no.

For #2, I'd say your experience shows that maybe you need to, since some of the shooters were contemplating shooting the stage in a potentially hazardous way.

For #3, I'll say that defining the 180 that way is too round about. Better to be explicit.

[Mark R]

Troy answered the first question in post #14. He is way up there in the NROI food chain, so his opinion carries weight. He says no.

For #2, I'd say your experience shows that maybe you need to, since some of the shooters were contemplating shooting the stage in a potentially hazardous way.

For #3, I'll say that defining the 180 that way is too round about. Better to be explicit.

Thanks Kevin...I'm on board and agree with you and Troy. I agree #1 about roaming/moving 180 = NO. Just wanted to know if WSB should/could state the 180 and be within rules...and since the rulebook doesn't state that the WSB should require the 180 line definition.

[Coach]

No such thing as a roaming 180, and if some state match or other called it that, they were wrong.

The 180 can be shifted to be parallel to the back of the course of fire, especially if the stage is set into the corner and designed to be shot "diagonally", but just because you have a corner there doesn't mean it moves. The way that stage is laid out, the 180 is parallel to the backstop.

Troy

Thank You

[rupture]

I was one of the so called "gamers" and we did give Mark a good ribbing about his stage ,but everyone shot it in a safe manner using the downrange backstop as the 180. But not before we got him riled and pulling out the no-shoots