Primers for 38 Super Open Major

[vscorsa]

Howdy,

In the CCI and Winchester primers are people running small pistol or small rifle?

I am changing away from Federal's where I used small rifle because the small pistol was to soft for major loads.

Thanks

Dave

(PS I have searched the forum and couldn't find any info, lots on load data thought.)

[Garmil]

same as 9 major. lots of people using both.

[brytec]

I've used majority small pistol Winchester but also have used small rifle Winchester ... Both working fine for me. Thanks

[Bamboo]

For the CCI i use the small pistol primer only as it seems the SRP cup is really hard, that is anecdotal though and I don't know if that is actually a fact.

For Winchester, I'll use either SPP or SRP. I typically use Win SRP, but at the 170-ish power factor zone where I usually run my loads I don't see any real difference between them.

[Ofishl1]

I have reloaded and shot over a 100,000 rounds of .38 Super Comp, however...I only use SRP when running high PF loads 173+ for a major match as the SRP's are designed to handle the excessive pressures (40,000+ ..SAAMI max is 36,000psi)....small pistol primers are not designed for this kind of pressure although many use them. (wacth forprimer flattening, craters).The SRP is inherently a harder shell for this reason, I find as many others that Federals are the most sensitive to primer strike in SRP, then WIN and CCI being the hardest. I only use SR primers when running my Open gun in Steel Challenge matches where the powder charge is reduced considerably, and for major always SRP.

My two.....

[mickd1]

for open div max power cci small rifle and have done for years

[vscorsa]

Perfect, thanks for the info guys.

[Cowboy1629]

I run both on my 9 Major. On my 1911 38 Super I just run small pistol but still pushing major with it.

[Garmil]

Its possible to create a 9 major load that will make power factor and not flatten or crater small pistol primers. Using small rifle primers in my opinion is just a way to mask the fact that your round is over pressure. Plus small pistol are easier on your breech face.

[zombywoof]

I run Win SRP in 38SC

[taco101]

CCI small pistol works well for me in .38SC

[Racinready300ex]

I use Federal SPP when I can find them, so problems so far.

[vgdvc]

On 7/24/2016 at 9:40 PM, Garmil said:

Its possible to create a 9 major load that will make power factor and not flatten or crater small pistol primers. Using small rifle primers in my opinion is just a way to mask the fact that your round is over pressure. Plus small pistol are easier on your breech face.

Hello. I'm formulating loads for my 38 Super open pistol ,major power factor. I'm trying to do research on best type of primers to use and why. If I may ask why do you say small pistol primers are  easier on the breach face? And is there a difference in your findings from standard to Magnum pistol?Thank you

[BallisticianX]

On 1/13/2019 at 9:29 PM, vgdvc said:

Hello. I'm formulating loads for my 38 Super open pistol ,major power factor. I'm trying to do research on best type of primers to use and why. If I may ask why do you say small pistol primers are  easier on the breach face? And is there a difference in your findings from standard to Magnum pistol?Thank you

I use small pistol magnum primers, previously in 9mm, and currently in 38 SC. I never had any piercing or cratering problems when I had tried standard small pistol but found my velocity had less deviation with the magnum primers vs standard especially in 38 SC. I attribute that to the increased flame retardant mixed in the slower powder range we use in major. That powder range does seem to benefit from from the extra heat and flame from a magnum primer for uniform and cleaner burn.  As far as the breech face issue, the concern is that a harder primer cup, like a small rifle, wont obturate under the pressure in a handgun major load and seal any gasses escaping the gap in primer and the pocket and cause breech face pressure erosion. This has happened to some and in my opinion is not just because of the "harder primer" it a compounded occurrence with a harder primer that does obturates less but is exacerbated with any already loose/worn primer pocket. I just run magnum pistol for performance uniformity and perhaps a bit more sealing in cases reloaded several times. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by BallisticianX

[vgdvc]

12 hours ago, BallisticianX said:

I use small pistol magnum primers, previously in 9mm, and currently in 38 SC. I never had any piercing or cratering problems when I had tried standard small pistol but found my velocity had less deviation with the magnum primers vs standard especially in 38 SC. I attribute that to the increased flame retardant mixed in the slower powder range we use in major. That powder range does seem to benefit from from the extra heat and flame from a magnum primer for uniform and cleaner burn.  As far as the breech face issue, the concern is that a harder primer cup, like a small rifle, wont obturate under the pressure in a handgun major load and seal any gasses escaping the gap in primer and the pocket and cause breech face pressure erosion. This has happened to some and in my opinion is not just because of the "harder primer" it a compounded occurrence with a harder primer that does obturates less but is exacerbated with any already loose/worn primer pocket. I just run magnum pistol for performance uniformity and perhaps a bit more sealing in cases reloaded several times. 

Excellent clarification,thank you. From your explanation I would conclude that small pistol magnum primers  may not be as hard as rifle primers. This should enable  them to expand more and seal the primer pocket better yet still giving more consistent burn, compared to standard pistol primers ,for the larger powder mass within the case. 

 I experienced breech face erosion a while back using Clay's powder with a Glock in 9mm. Clay's has a very quick and high pressure spike and if any military cases got involved with reloading it led to a non-uniform primer pocket seal and pitted the soft Glock breech face. Moving to softer primer such as Federal and eliminating military brass solved the issue.

 

[BallisticianX]

15 hours ago, vgdvc said:

Excellent clarification,thank you. From your explanation I would conclude that small pistol magnum primers  may not be as hard as rifle primers. This should enable  them to expand more and seal the primer pocket better yet still giving more consistent burn, compared to standard pistol primers ,for the larger powder mass within the case. 

 I experienced breech face erosion a while back using Clay's powder with a Glock in 9mm. Clay's has a very quick and high pressure spike and if any military cases got involved with reloading it led to a non-uniform primer pocket seal and pitted the soft Glock breech face. Moving to softer primer such as Federal and eliminating military brass solved the issue.

 

Usually the Small rifle primer does have a tougher cup from a harder brass alloy or just a thicker wall. What the manufacturers do exactly at any given time is only known to them. But the Rifle flavor of primers are built to withstand the elevated pressures found in rifle cartridges as compared to pistols. The magnum primer does offer higher heat range and flame mass as compared to standard small pistol to ignite "slower powders" found in the magnum handgun range of suitable powders. The powders often used for major are at the beginning of the magnum powder range on up. The uniform ignition advantage correlates to the flame retardant additives in the powders formula to retard the burn. Its simple physics/chemistry; The more resistant a material is to burn the higher the heat and volume thereof is required to ignite. The quicker more efficiently you ignite the more uniform the burn from case to case. My extensive time chronographing a given major load with only changing the primer showed improved consistency with velocity and group size at 35 yards with a magnum pistol primer vs standard. The small rifle primer was also more consistant vs standard primer. As far as Clays powder goes, I dont like it. Despite the rage about it some years back I never saw anything that impressed me. I dont see any advantage to using it but can see issues instead. The flake design meters horribly with considerable deviation from charge to charge. Then considering the low charge weights that deviation in metering makes some significant velocity and pressure changes. Then as far as accuracy, even with hand measuring each charge I never found it to be wowing. I could put together loads with the same bullet at the same velocity with Bullseye, Titegroup, & A#2 and hold tighter groups. I also never noticed it being that much softer than those others either. If anything A#2 felt softer. 

[mag17]

I have run cci and winchester small pistol primers with no issues on my 9mm major.... But I know that some folks use the small rifle....

 

I am using autocomp for powder - bravo comp with no poppet holes....   

[BallisticianX]

15 minutes ago, mag17 said:

I have run cci and winchester small pistol primers with no issues on my 9mm major.... But I know that some folks use the small rifle....

 

I am using autocomp for powder - bravo comp with no poppet holes....   

Nothing wrong with Small pistol standards for major work. I shot them back when I used 9 major for awhile when primers were scarce. I had a couple pierced ones out of however many thousands that didnt. I think standard primers are less prone to possible piercing in 38 super than 9 (lower chamber pressures in 38 super from larger case and usual use of slower powders etc). I just think the mag primers give the best balance of pressure resistance, sealing, and uniform ignition. I also feel the small rifle craze is overkill and unnecessary. But in this great sport of endless possibilities I say whatever works for you...go with it!

[jstagn]

Thanks BallisticianX for your easy understanding  of this issue. Going to be running  38sc soon and was grappling with this issue . Have lots of Federal  SPP. Several top GMs told me they use SRP and have increased FPS from 20-50. So I purchased a few packs of SRP of the top 4 brands to test, also fed spp, mostly regarding flattening, cratering etc. Next will come chrono. Will post results. Using 3n38, Pd 124gr JHP.

Edited January 19, 2019 by jstagn

[vgdvc]

10 hours ago, jstagn said:

Thanks BallisticianX for your easy understanding  of this issue. Going to be running  38sc soon and was grappling with this issue . Have lots of Federal  SPP. Several top GMs told me they use SRP and have increased FPS from 20-50. So I purchased a few packs of SRP of the top 4 brands to test, also fed spp, mostly regarding flattening, cratering etc. Next will come chrono. Will post results. Using 3n38, Pd 124gr JHP.

Looking forward to seeing those results. When weather conditions become more favorable in the Northeast I plan to do a similar experiment and will post results also. However I want to include Magnum pistol primers in the mix to see how  readings compare ballistically and if there are varying signs of pressure upon visual inspection.

[Rcknease]

Winchester small rifle.