Real World Experience With Polymer Wolf .223-anyone?

[gl]

Has anyone put significant rounds downrange with the new .223 wolf polymer coated ammo?

Results on accuracy, function, cleaning, ect.....???

Thanks!

Guy Hawkins

[smokshwn]

My comments are still the same.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...hl=Wolf+Polymer

[George]

I just ordered 1k and will have an answer in a couple weeks (assuming it arrives in the 3-6 days promised).

I will be runnin' it downrange in AR's with bbls ranging from 1:7 to 1:9 twist and pedigree ranging from Colt production box stock, to JP custom built.

More later after I burn some up to see if it's worth buyin' lots more ;-)

[Religious Shooter]

I heard it makes you sterile.

I shot about 800 rounds a couple years a go in a class without any problems.

I've shot 300 rounds of a recent vintage.

The newer vintage (white plastic) has a different shade of bullet than the older ones (black plastic). Lot to lot variations? Maybe.

They definitely have less recoil. In a practice session after about 120 rds of Wolf the gun started to choke (short stroke => failure to feed). The gun was dirty begin with. But switching to my reloads with more oomph made the gun run again. So the MTBF with the Wolf will probably be less.

I swore I wasn't going to be using any Wolf in my match upper as my extractor broke at a major match shorly after I used about 300-500 rds of Wolf for practice. But a year has passed and I'm chalking it up to coincidence.

And frankly... I don't really have much of a choice. Cheap 55 FMJBT heads are rare or nonexistent. Brass prices have gone up. A 1000 of factory 55's are in the $330+ delivered range. Etc... So sterility here I come.

[smokshwn]

I shoot the 62 gr. so here's the last chrono data out of an 18" barrel for 10 rds.

Vel Avg 2780 fps Ext. Spread was 52 fps

[Steve Moneypenny]

Even with polymer coating Steel cases are going to beat up your extractor. and can cause Bad Ju Ju.

I have a friend who bought 3K and couldn't get it to run through any of his guns.

[kdmoore]

my wylde chamber didn't like the bullet profile. It wouldn't fully seat the round, and when i extracted the round (often forcefully) it would leave the bullet in the gun, spill gunpowder all over, and extract just the case.

When it does run, accuracy from my 1:7.7 bll was the worse that I've tested (Q3131a, xm193, pmc, wwb, pmp, radway, etc). I was getting 4 inches ~ at 100 yards. Others were better, often half that. I have shot groups of ~1 inch with some BH 75 gns, so I can shoot better with better bullets, but I'm not winning any accuracy awards . I'm sure it's the scope ... or my bipod ... or my bbl ... or maybe the nut behind the trigger?

[StealthyBlagga]

DO NOT USE WOLF FOR ANYTHING SERIOUS ! You have been warned .

It generally runs OKish in most guns, so long as the gun does not get hot, you don't shoot too many rounds, and your clean the chamber scrupulously after each shooting session (use a GI chamber brush). If the gun gets hot, and you let a round sit in the chamber, you will more than likely get a stuck case so bad the rim is ripped off and you need to pound the case out of the gun with a steel rod (don't even try with a non-steel rod). Of course, this is just the kind of shooting we do in 3-gun.

In addition to the reliability concern, its generally not very accurate, and it stinks.

I use it in my SBR for fun shooting. My serious match guns NEVER see Wolf... I just won't take the risk.

[smokshwn]

SB

With all due respest I have to throw the BS flag. The problem you describe is with the OLD (read out of production for the last couple years) lacquer covered Wolf ammo.

Feel free to make your own choice concerning what ammo you put in your guns. However there are more than a few folks who shoot a lot of wolf ammo with no problems.

[George]

I have heard nothing but good about the NEW Polymer coated Wolf and that is why I am suspending any predispositions I had, buying a case of it and taking it out to the range to see with my own eyes what it actually does in MY AR's.

I have decided that is how I will make up my mind about this stuff. If it plays out like I hope it does, I may not be loading much 3gun .223 for the forseeable future even though I am stocking up on components right now ;-)

[blkbrd]

I run the Wolf 55gr FMJ in my JP for local 3-gun matches, as well as use it for practice in my "serious" rifles.

It runs for about 400 rounds in my JP with a light carrier without cleaning, and about 1K in my go to rifles.

Underpowered yes, dirty yes, but still shoots 1 1/2" 100 yard 10 shot groups in my JP and works the comp well.

Not what I would ever use for "real world" but for play and practice its great.

I have shot about 8K of the polymer stuff and have had good luck. I have not seen the gun store commando hype about extractor problems, the case is soft pot metal not really steel and the case never touches the chamber as the polymer acts as a lubricant.

Its better to practice with live ammo than not practice at all. A miss with good ammo wont win anywhere.

[Patrick Sweeney]

I've got an article coming out soon, on my experience on running Wolf ammo. I (and Dave Fortier) blasted nearly 5,000 rounds each through our guns in a one-week class.

He had one malf, I had two. If you want to do it, here's how: Start with a "break contact" drill: a full mag as fast as you can get hits or near-hits on the bad guys. Then another magazine as soon as you've moved to your new position. After that, (you've moved again) hammer 10-12 magazines downrange with aimed suppressive fire: one shot every couple of seconds at targets or likely targets.

Then, chamber a round (don't burn your hand through your nomex glove on your smokin' hot barrel) and haul casualties or essential gear to the extraction point. If you fire the chambered round, it will break the case rim off. You'll need a cleaning rod to poke the empty out, and the rifle will work again.

Short of that, no problems.

The rifle was a Stag M4 clone.

I have no problems using Wolf for practice or training, at least close-up. I'll get a chance after the thaw to try some groups, but I had no problems hitting stuff in the class.

[richardschennberg]

1. Eagle Arms by Armalite, heavy barrel with MATCH CHAMBER: I have experienced stuck cases when firing more than 10-20 rounds of polymer coated ammo in less than one minute. The heat melts the polymer, which builds up in the chamber, eventually leading to a jam requiring a lot of force to eject the case. Besides the obvious waste of time where it matters (such as a 3-gun competition or similar timed side match), this can't be good for the extractor!

2. AR-15 HBAR by Colt, well broken in: it eats everything, including every variety of Wolf. Cleaning every 100-200 rounds is recommended.

This was a .223 question, but the AKs seem to digest any 7.62x39 ammo even if you hardly ever clean them. WARNING: do clean any model gun THAT DAY if there is any chance whatsoever that you used corrosive ammo or primers!

DVC,

[kurtm]

I could never get the polymer to "melt" and that was with a propane torch, It would burn but at no time durring the slow heating of the case did I get it to stick to the peice of metal I rubbed on the case. I have shot a bunch of it and it works ok, the 62 grain stuff seemed to be the best in My tubes, and Trapr was getting hits at 350 yards on a 10" steel swinger with his rifle.

Edited April 14, 2007 by kurtm

[richardschennberg]

O.K. melt was probably too strong a word. I know it only happened when the gun got hot, so I suppose the polymer is heated just enough to get softer and build up fast enough to cause a stuck case jam in a match chamber shooting one stage. Regardless of "why," my suggestion is to limit use of polymer coated ammo to basic barrels (no tight match chambers) that have been broken in. New barrels and match barrels are both finicky about ammo, and a new match barrel is the most likely to only want "the good stuff."

[glock_556]

I literally shot thousands of it through my Colt 6920 with ZERO malfunctions.

Now, I built an AR for my uncle and used a Wilson barrel, it will NOT feed the Wolf ammo hardly at all, if I remember correctly it was like one FTF every 20-30 rounds.

[bigbrowndog]

To say that your personal experience is typical would be incorrect.(i'm not addressing anyone in particular)

I've shot it in 3 rifles, and it works. one of my guns needs to have the chamber cleared by firing the last round w/o magazine, but the other 2 do not, all 3 have had chambers polished. So who knows why one does and the others don't. On a whim, I tried some out to 350yds, with 3 witnesses. (Bronco,mike.45,kurtm) and indeed got hits from 200 out to 350, with the same sight picture I use for my LR match loads. I had the Wolf for hosing stages, it was nice to know it would hit if I had to use it.

I have only used the 62gr HP load. As far as getting hits, once I hit it (plate) at 350, on the second attempt I believe, I went hit for shot, 5 times or so, and then ran out of ammo.

I will continue to use it for local matches and hosing stages.

DISCLAIMER: your results may vary.

[George]

I just got 1k of the 62gr Wolff from Cabellas for testing. No live fire yet, but so far it has impressed me as far as packaging quality and round to round consistency goes. I broke open two boxes of twenty and ran them through my favorite measuring devices.

The JP ammo gauge is very picky and all the Wolff cleared that hurdle as well as my carefully hand rolled fodder does. Next, the L.E. Wilson ammo gauge had all of them reading just about one thousandth deeper than the bottom of the headspace step. This means setback is generous and will fit anything as far as chambers go and who cares about a little extra blowout on a steel case.

Weight from round to round was running under 2.5 grains variance and OAL varied less than 3 thous'

The finish was slick and seemed to be just a little more scratch resistant than plain brass to my initial tests (load and unload a mag and scrape a case side with a bullet tip).

The rounds come in a plastic carrier that exposes the case heads and allows stripper clips to be pushed right over the rounds without removing them from the carrier.

I am impressed with the quality I see for the price I spent ($199/k at Cabelas).

Range test report some time next week. If it functions and groups reasonably well in my CTR-02, I am going to go ahead and consider using it as my match fodder for the upcoming Bay Area Rifle Championship. Nothing like a trial by fire to see what the true mettle of something is ;-)

[MedicineMan]

Wolf polymer is not all that new as I've been shooting it for over

2 years. I've used mostly 62 gr HP which chronos at 2735 fps out

of my 20" colt 1/7 barrel. I've also run a lot of it thru a 16" colt

1/9 twist. The 16 " gun was chronographed at the Ky State Multi-gun

Match and made power factor but I don't remember the stats. It generally shoots under 2 " at 100 yds in both guns and has been absolutely reliable. It is underpowered as it is 300 fps slower

than M855 out of the 20" barrel. The only thing I've noticed is it doesn't

seem to expand and seal that chamber very well as the fired cases

are sooty. I've gone thru 7000 rounds so far and see no reason not to continue to shoot it. I haven't broken any extractors so far and if I do

so what they're cheap compared to all the money I've saved from shooting Wolf polymer.

[SinistralRifleman]

It is consistently the cause of malfunctions, in all makes of AR15 rifles.

I hope all the people I shoot against use Wolf Ammo.

[Religious Shooter]

I haven't broken any extractors so far and if I do so what they're cheap compared to all the money I've saved from shooting Wolf polymer.

Absolutely true. The savings to be had can buy the shooter plenty of extractors.

But what if it breaks on you during a major match like it did on me? Drive/fly for hours. Spend $$$ for gas or airfare. Shell out for a room for a couple of days. Spend $$$ in ammo practicing for the match. Take the time for said practice. Spend more $$$ for the match fee. Spend more $$$ eating out.

But I'm still using it.

I'm planning to have a "major match" bolt. A bolt with an extractor that hasn't been used with steel cased ammo. To be only used at major matches with brass cased ammo.

And of course I'll have another bolt for practice and local matches.

[StealthyBlagga]

With all due respest I have to throw the BS flag. The problem you describe is with the OLD (read out of production for the last couple years) lacquer covered Wolf ammo.

I assure you this is not BS. I am as big a tightwad as anyone, and have shot both old and new Wolf .223 ammo through several otherwise reliable AR15s, in the hope of convincing myself that the latest stuff is OK. IT IS NOT ! The stuck case phenomenon is a real risk with this ammo, and unlike posted above it does not take 15 magazines to make the gun that hot - I have reliably created this problem on demand with only 2 fast mags.

Let me also deal with some other statements, misstatements and urban legends:

Gun Damage - I have no evidence that the steel case will damage the extractor, bolt, ejector or chamber. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but I haven't seen any obvious correlation between Wolf ammo and gun breakages. Given that steel case ammo was widely used by US forces in WW2, and we won the war, I'm guessing the guns can take it.

Polymer Melting in the Chamber - The old laquer used to melt. The new polymer looks like it is melting, because the fired case has a layer of what looks like charred plastic on it. Based on testing by the Box-o-Truth guys, I tend to agree that the real problem is carbon blow-by fouling the chamber. Regardless of whether this crap is polymer, carbon or fairy dust, the fact that it increases the chance of a stuck case is undeniable.

Accuracy, Velocity - Wolf is typically less accurate and powerful than other commercial ammo. This is not to say that some guns might not shoot accurately with it. How accurate and powerful you need the ammo to be depends on your application. By any standards, the propellent gases do stink .

As for whether Wolf is right for you, maybe your gun and shooting style will make you lucky, maybe not. The phenomena I describe are known issues with the new polymer coated ammo, whether the Wolf fans like it or not. Like I said, I have nothing against Wolf for plinking, practice and non-critical competitive applications, but I cannot advise anyone to use it for serious 3-gun use, no matter how cheap it is. Caveat Emptor.

Edited April 16, 2007 by StealthyBlagga

[jobob]

I've used Wolf polymer off and on for a couple of years. I have one rifle (20" bushy) that is picky with it and tends to short stroke. My other guns (carbines) eat it up! I recently ordered a POF upper. To my surprise I found out that the factory actually recommends Wolf! POF has two sponsored shooters who, I was told, shoot nothing but Wolf in 3-gun. The POF is piston operated, so does not have the issues with carbon build up that standard ARs have, but it uses the same AR extractor, I believe.

I should be receiving the POF upper within the next month. I hope it comes in plenty of time for me to wring it out before Ironman!

[smokshwn]

On the subject of extractors..... they are a maintenance part, change them every 2-3 k if you have a huge fear of them breaking.

[Chris]

I shot a few hundred rounds of it at Mystery Mountain and didn't have any problems. I used AE .223 for the stuff at 300+ and Poly Wolf .223 HPs for all the close hoser targets.

When I was sighting in, I did shoot some of the Wolf and was able to hit the small 300 yard plate at the public range.